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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:27 pm 
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Hello!

I have been following the thread about vehicles, especially cheap light vehicles being overpowered in Warzone. Myself and Raptor911 had a game last week, and due to me trying to kill his Orca, it was an absolute blowout. He took about 150 points worth of losses, I took 640.

They key is to be able to do more than one point of damage per location at a time, with a high AVV weapon. I have tried AIM with my squads, as I get +2 to hit, AND can choose the armor location. However, my squads only have AVV1. So while I can get a decent number of hits on location, the AVV saves are usually made. As a Cybertronic player we have only ONE weapon in the entire army list that has Critical Damage (2), a squad rocket launcher upgrade.

So to up my damage output, I looked to using my Engage Bonus, trying to take the damn thing out in HTH, as well as the squad rules for Focued Fire, and Swarm.

My opponent said: "Oh no, The increased damage from Close Combat attacks are STR based, and thus only affect Characters. CC bonuses increase Critical Force. Also, you can only increase damage on focus fire and swarm against Characters, because that is Critical Force too. You cant do it against Vehicles, you have to have Critical Damage to hurt a vehicile."

IS THIS TRUE? ARE VEHICLES IMMUNE TO FOCUS FIRE? SWARM and ENGAGE INCREASED WOUNDS?

Lets look at the rules for Critical Force / Critical Damage. The words "Critical Damage" are only mentioned TWICE in the entire rule book. Once under the deffinition section, and once under the Rail section. "Critical Force" is mentioned 17 times in the rulebook.

Critical Force/Critical Damage
Quote:
Some weapons are naturally so powerful that they have what is referred to as Critical Force or Critical Damage.
Other weapons can have their St increased to Critical Force level (e.g. by ‘Focus Fire’ or by
the use of particular Gear Cards). If a Wound Effect is caused with St18 or more, ‘Critical
Force (X)’ is caused. The ‘Critical Force’ level is dependant of the St of the Attack.
•• St 18 has Critical Force (2) – Each Wound Effect inflicts 2 Wounds per failed Armour test
•• St 19 has Critical Force (3) – Each Wound Effect inflicts 3 Wounds per failed Armour test
•• St 20 has Critical Force (4) – Each Wound Effect inflicts 4 Wounds per failed Armour test

Failed AV tests against weapons with Critical Damage (x) result in a loss of Structure
Points equal to X.


The rules above seem to group the two together. No where does it expressly say that Critical Force cannot affect vehicles. But I can see the argument that says "Critical Force == Wounds", "Critical Damage == Structure Points".

Engage Bonus:
Quote:
Models gain a Modifier to their St and AVV based on their Base size when they complete
an ‘Engage’ Action:
•• Small Bases: receive a +2 St and +1 AVV Modifier
•• Medium Bases: receive a + 4 St and + 2 AVV Modifier
•• Large Bases: receive + 6 St and + 3 AVV Modifier


So on Engage, you do lowe rthe AVV slightly but the STR increase your hand to hand attack does *ONLY CAUSES INCREASED WOUNDS ON CHARACTERS*. This means a rampaging Meca, could gain STR 20, critical force 4 on his first attack and smash any Warzone character into a greasy smear. But that same punch would only do 1 point of damage against a motorcycle.

Focused Fire:
Quote:
The Models completing the Focus Fire Squad Special Action cannot make any other Shooting
Actions in the same Game Turn. The Player makes a single RS test (ignoring the weapon’s RoF) with a +6 Modifier to RS, using the highest RS Value of any one Squad member participating in the Focus Fire.
The St of the weapon during this Squad Special Action is equal to the lowest St Value of Ranged weapons participating in the ‘Focus Fire’ plus the sum of the RoF of all Models participating in the Focus Fire.
The weapon type is always counted as Piercing in a Focus Fire Squad Special Action.

For every 3 Models participating in the Focus Fire, the Ranged Attack gains Critical Force +1 and AVV +1.


So again above, you give up an entire squads shooting to get encreased power. With at 10 man squad you get Critical Force (3), AVV (-3). This action will kill a character dead, but only do ONE point of damage to a vehicle.

The same goes with Swarm for Hand to Hand combat. I will avoid posting the rule here, because esentially they are the excact same as Focus Fire.

Im hoping there is some FAQ clarification that says Focus Fire, and Swarm, and Engage bonuses cause Critical Force/Critical Damage (x). But.. it may not if this is how the game is intended.

Analysis:
If this is truly what the Game desiginers intended, then I think there are two main problems here.
1) Vehicles, being immune to all these special rules are much, much more powerful than troops. And thus army lists who have access to multiple cheap vehicles are themselves more powerful.
2) Warzone is a game of "Kill the commander", much like the dreaded "Kill the warcaster" syndrome of Privateer Press's Warmachine. Focus Fire, Take out the 250 point commander, take out the resources, win the game.


Diggity


Last edited by diggitydug on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:17 pm 
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And while were at it: CC with tanks. The rules say:
- CC Attacks vs Tanks - the Player can select the Hit Location instead of rolling for it.

But nothing in the game is type "TANK"
The Capitol AFT-20 Leviathan is type "Heavy Vehicle" (Tracked no base)
The Bauhaus Grizzly is type "Heavy Vehicle" (Tracked no base)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Location: Sweden
I think you can safely assume that the grizzly battle tank is a tank.. Same thing with the Leviathan. :) I see your point though, it should be printed in the description.

As for taking out the warlord by focus fire, it is quite important to have a bodyguard with your hero. Letting them walk alone is kind if certain death and high risk.

Anyway, for the vehicle "issue" cybertronic is certainly not alone in having few weapons with critical damage 2 or more. How about their cards, do they have anything useful there? If I remember correctly there are some antivehicle stuff among the brotherhood cards (at least crucifier) so I'm thinking it could be the same for other factions.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Critical Force is for Wound effects only. Vehicules have structure points (SP) and effects associated to them are usually in the line "all loss of SP are doubled". See description pour rocket launchers for an idea on that.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:21 pm 
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1) We dont play with cards. We play the basic game, not an advance one. Is the basic game broken? Must you play with the cards to have a balanced game?

2) I think that the Engage, Swarm, and Focus Fire should affect vehicles as well as characters.

3) Army lists that have access to multiple vehicles (Bauhaus Vorreiter, Vulcan Battlesuit) & (Capitol purple sharks and Orca), are vastly superior to army lists without.

4) Army lists with special rules in force organziation (Capitol purple sharks as troops) or Light Vehicle enhancments (Bauhus +1 AV, reroll armor saves for AVV 1-3) are vastly superior to army lists without.

5) Light vehicle equivalencies that are actually character style models (Scorpion, Mishima Hinsu Dragonriders) are at a HUGE disadvantage vs. Purple Sharks or Vulcan battlesuits, because Focus Fire, Engage, and Swarm work against character style models.

Now im not complaining. At least I dont play Mishima. Poor Mishima, they are a close combat oriented army. Close combat is vastly inneficient against vehicles (Because Engage bonsues dont affect vehicles) In their army list, they have NOTHING to combat against multiple light vehicles. The only item in their whole army that has Critical Damage (2) is the Meka.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:07 am 
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Oh but you wanted the mishima! And you killed 190 point of my guys ;)

Good questions though.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Location: Pais Vasco - Spain
Mishima CC focused? Look at the Demon Hunters, RoF 4 RS14 dmg 14.
Ronin RS 12 dmg 12

Mishima is the best army in CC, not CC focushed, it is not the same thing.

And the Meka is the best vehicle for the point in my opinion.

The game is not balanced 100% but is far from broken. But yes, the cards can open your mind to a new metagame.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:15 am 
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Location: Yuma Arizona
Ok as far as cybertronic lacking crit damage weapons they can take a plethora of crit force 2 high rof weapons in a rail spam list. Fun thing about rails are that they have a nice chance (1-4) at being crit damage 2 also usually all of cybertronic has avv of some sort in its ranged game and more so in its CC game. This will all be discussed in our cybertronic podcast which may be next in line due to a lack of Mishima experts willing to come forward.


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