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 Post subject: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:17 am 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 76
In previous warzone editions the average trooper strength is 4 (or 5) and in WZR I see 8 as the lowest for basic troopers and dogs.

The question is: what use or benefit does this serve? Was it merely to make the fact that the base CC attack ST for troopers was 8. I see Combat Knife +0 ST and then another model has +2 ST for a Combat Knife. I don't like how a similar weapon or the same weapon has such a big difference. Would it have changed things up to have, say 6 ST for the base trooper and have the weapon for Light Infantry be Combat Knife +2 ST for damage. It would have resulted in the same final damage.

But what is useful about having the 8 vs the 6 ST?

I also see models like the Scorpion have a 10 strength and they are robotic and in UWZ the scorpion also has a 10 vs the normal troopers 4 or 5 strength, thus the Scorpion is much greater in strength (basically double) so if the base trooper is 8 and the scorpion stays the same it means this big robotic type seems weaker, but was it perceived that models like that were actually a bit too strong.

Again what is Strength used for: base CC damage plus weapon modifier. Also break away tests? Anything else?

Any thoughts on the way WZR treats strength especially relative to other earlier editions of Warzone (WZ1e, 2e, UWZ) technically WZR is Warzone 4th edition so this question really extends to all of those and I'm trying to see why the change to strength was made and if it ultimately benefits the game. If so, what are those benefits? or was it merely a style choice.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:36 am
Posts: 58
For me most annoying thing are different weapon stats for different troops. Well... maybe that because I loved 2nd edition (before units in armybooks become overpowered) where you knew that if someone shots you from shotgun, you knew what to expect. Now, you have to check, if this unit doesnt have different stats for it.

I liked also the 2nd edition CC rules, where the CC stat was important depending on who you fight. Higly skilled fighter could easily avoid blows from poorly trained in hth opponent and kill him instatntly. In this edition, you hit everybody the same way, no matter if you fight Bruce Lee or some guy in heavy power armour that slowes him down...

I miss 2nd edition...


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:44 pm
Posts: 418
Location: San Fransisco Bay Area
It is most likely a style thing, however Armor test strength mods may be a part of it. If basic models were strength 6 they would be giving their enemy combatants +4 to their armor test rolls in close combat.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:47 pm
Posts: 69
The main benefit is that we can easily balance the game, as working with 10 as a base point, let us , mathematically, to do it. (st 10 = 100% effectiveness , than is added a factor of + or - where one point is equal to 5% effectiveness)
Grzech76, oh I remember those days when my Alakhai could wipe out almost half of my opponent's Army, but that was one sided fun, our intention is to make a balanced game, when a Hero can take down (or provide support in taking down) enemy models equal to its own value, but ,hey I am also missing 2 ed :)


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 76
Ok, thanks for the replies. If the intention is to balance you could have lower actual ST scores and simply have the weapon modifier be more.

Combat Knife ST + 4 for example, or some weapons up to like +8 or +9.

The end damage (or ST) of the attack would be the same, but how its calculated is different and gives more emphasis on the weapon.

But I get then why you made the ST's the way you did.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:47 pm
Posts: 69
Horned God wrote:
Ok, thanks for the replies. If the intention is to balance you could have lower actual ST scores and simply have the weapon modifier be more.

Combat Knife ST + 4 for example, or some weapons up to like +8 or +9.

The end damage (or ST) of the attack would be the same, but how its calculated is different and gives more emphasis on the weapon.

But I get then why you made the ST's the way you did.



Please don't forget that we have an another factor - type of the weapon vs armour mod.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:47 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:36 am
Posts: 58
Jarek@Prodos wrote:
Grzech76, oh I remember those days when my Alakhai could wipe out almost half of my opponent's Army, but that was one sided fun, our intention is to make a balanced game, when a Hero can take down (or provide support in taking down) enemy models equal to its own value, but ,hey I am also missing 2 ed :)


Well, that system was great, but needed minor (in my opinion) adjustments. Of course not counting following armybooks that destroyed balance with every new one book...

But the CC system and the stats were best I remember. Also the shooting was good balanced, especially Rocket Launchers, that were hard to hit a soldier, but with aiming and Armoured vehicle they did good. Now, it doesn't matter if I shoot to soldier with rifle or RL... Well, its better to shoot with rocket.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:53 am
Posts: 269
So what exactly is keeping you from playing 2nd then? You got new, cooler miniatures and the rules that you obviously prefer.

I never looked at Warzone in those days, mostly because their miniatures were so bad (we cant design, so just do mainly shoulderpads, right?), so I cant really say anything about the rules back then. I really got into the new rules, I literally LOVE the card mechanics (because I´m a tcg player myself) and I love the possible synergies between cards and unit composition.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:36 am
Posts: 58
Nothing, and we are doing it. But hoped the new rules will be something similar to the older ones.
Bad thing is that new minis are not compatible as the bases are larger and its hard to put some models on 2,5mm base.


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 Post subject: Re: A Matter of Strength
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 3:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 9:21 pm
Posts: 76
Many of the new models are compatible, especially single and large models. Like the scorpion. There is no reason you can't use models like that if you want to.


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