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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 253
Pax wrote:
Jarek answered the Movement question on Facebook in relation to another discussion about movement and powers.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/3578126 ... 123262716/

Quote:
yes, the MVx2 is the golden rule, we have +X" to distance cards in game to counter an opponent's cards/abilities in play which are affecting your model's ability to travel maximum movement allowance or you can use it if a model travels through light/heavy terrain to negate negative modifiers.


That is in direct contradiction to their own rulebook...


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:35 am 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Where do they contradict themselves? it seems valid as far as I can say to the rules stated in the book.

Both the rules in the pdf on page 7, 10 and 27 states the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:28 am 
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The contradiction is between the example+picture on p27 and that positive modifiers added beyond MVx2 is only there to mitigate terrain or other effects. On page 27, there is an example of a MV5 model recieves +2" modifier to movement and it can then travel 12".


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:57 am 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Agreed, that example is a bad one as it confuses things.

If it had been a bit longer explaining that while the modified Movement is 12" the total allowed movement is still only 10" and that extra 2" could be used to compensate penaltys through terrain or opponent cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:25 am 
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Pax wrote:
Agreed, that example is a bad one as it confuses things.

If it had been a bit longer explaining that while the modified Movement is 12" the total allowed movement is still only 10" and that extra 2" could be used to compensate penaltys through terrain or opponent cards.


Then what about Armoured Chasseurs "Power Blink"? It allows the model to be teleported 12" without negatives for terrain, this could be said to be modified movement, but then they could only teleport 10" due to the MVx2 rule. Or, Power Blink does not count as movement, and then they can complete either a Move Action, or an Engage Action after a Power Blink (provided extra action from resources of course).

I just feel that +movement modifiers are comparatively crap in this case, and should in general be replaced by rules such as Pathfiner and Ranger, as they work in a complex and counterintuitive way. New players playing a card (or buying an ability) that modifies movement should not be told "it doesn't actually modify movement unless you are running through terrain". And I mean, come on. The moment has come? Who would take this? Ever? Chances are you have to blow a move to get into position to engage anyway, which means your bonus will count for nothing due to MVx2 getting reached.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Their Power Blink rule overrules the basic rule and let them travel further than their M value. You will be out of travelling distance though as you spent your 10" +2 in bonus. and Power Blink counts as a Run Action. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:47 pm
Posts: 69
Kollar wrote:
Pax wrote:
Agreed, that example is a bad one as it confuses things.

If it had been a bit longer explaining that while the modified Movement is 12" the total allowed movement is still only 10" and that extra 2" could be used to compensate penaltys through terrain or opponent cards.


Then what about Armoured Chasseurs "Power Blink"? It allows the model to be teleported 12" without negatives for terrain, this could be said to be modified movement, but then they could only teleport 10" due to the MVx2 rule. Or, Power Blink does not count as movement, and then they can complete either a Move Action, or an Engage Action after a Power Blink (provided extra action from resources of course).

I just feel that +movement modifiers are comparatively crap in this case, and should in general be replaced by rules such as Pathfiner and Ranger, as they work in a complex and counterintuitive way. New players playing a card (or buying an ability) that modifies movement should not be told "it doesn't actually modify movement unless you are running through terrain". And I mean, come on. The moment has come? Who would take this? Ever? Chances are you have to blow a move to get into position to engage anyway, which means your bonus will count for nothing due to MVx2 getting reached.



Power Blink rule: "counts as Run Action". In the same time, it's unique model's Rule and as with Unique rules they might be some level of exceptions to the main rules, like travel more than MVx2, but it still counts as movement/travel ("counts as Run Action"): in WZR we have tons of that: exceptions to Rapid Deployment (Scorpion) , exceptions to Heal (Legion) , Exceptions to Move (Various squads) , targeting (Mortificators) and even controlling opponent models (Valpurigius), without this Unique exceptions the game would be more like chess (boring to some degree).


The Example from page 47 (Rulebook) in fact must be corrected, it missing sentence there about other modifiers in game taking it to max. MVx2.

Please note we suggest to use Basic rules for beginners, before the Advanced - cards (more complexity) is added.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:56 pm 
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Grzech76 wrote:
But in this case, why Prodos decided on such complication? If the M gives no benefits other than rough terrain ignoring, why it is made this way? Also the Bauhaus' "the moment has come" is totally useless for 15 points. As 2 inches movement increase I can take with "schenll schnell schnell" and thats more efficently and give me benefit with longer charge.

I know I am the biggest complaining jerk here, but thats another unclear rule, that gets more complicated with designers answer. And the prodos even do not wish to visit this forum. They even do not put link here on their new site.


Grzechu, thanks for your feedback :

The link to the forum is on our Page here:
http://prodosgames.com/ top bar , second from right.

and as you can see I am here :)

Cap on travel to MV2 is important to stop shenanigans like : Power Blink + Move... stopping from travelling 17"!

Regarding Bauhaus, the full story:

Schnell! Schnell! Schnell! -adds +1 to MV, so Engage, Run at 12" all the time @ 5 points a model =12 man squad =60 pts

The Moment Has Come! - adds +2" movement modifier to Engage Action (yes, can be used only if there are other modifiers in the game) for 15pts A SQUAD + 1 Res to activate.

Completely two different costs/rules. The The Moment Has Come! can be used tactically as the name suggested, your opponent will only find out about this once you issue the Engage action ,were for Schnell! Schnell! Schnell! he might be aware about the +1 MV earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Well... counts as run but you say that it cannot be combined with other movement to move more than 10 inches. So in your example on FB, model that moves first 5 inches cannot blink more than 5 inches even if the power blink gives this opportunity, as it allows to override the restrictions of MV x 2 - there is nothing in the rules that forbids it.

As for schnell schnell - in 5 man squad it is cost of 25 points and allows you much more mobility for entire squad without resource and all the time, no matter what.

As for forum link - I haven't seen it, so my apolgies.

The rules should be written clearly. Simple. That allows people to not turn back if after 5th game they still are not sure how to do it. I know, that it is easy to agree everything within team you play, but that is not what should work. These agreements should be as minor as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement modifiers
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:47 pm
Posts: 69
Grzech76 wrote:
Well... counts as run but you say that it cannot be combined with other movement to move more than 10 inches. So in your example on FB, model that moves first 5 inches cannot blink more than 5 inches even if the power blink gives this opportunity, as it allows to override the restrictions of MV x 2 - there is nothing in the rules that forbids it.

As for schnell schnell - in 5 man squad it is cost of 25 points and allows you much more mobility for entire squad without resource and all the time, no matter what.

As for forum link - I haven't seen it, so my apolgies.

The rules should be written clearly. Simple. That allows people to not turn back if after 5th game they still are not sure how to do it. I know, that it is easy to agree everything within team you play, but that is not what should work. These agreements should be as minor as possible.


Yes" it Counts as Run action with Exception that model can be placed (travel) 12" (exception) for power blink. Once the model is Placed (used an action) then for any other action you must check for following conditions :
1. What is my movement allowance left - Power Blink = ... well, I've used the power blink @ 12" so no more movement allowance is left
2.What is my movement allowance left - Blink = ... well, I've used Blink at 6" (counts as move) then I would like to Make an Engage Action, what is my movement allowance left = MV5= 10 - 6" for blink, I could make an Engage at 4" (no Engage Bonus).

Please bear in mind, each action in the game is conducted individually, after each action you must check for several conditions to complete another action.
Good example is move + Engage,
1. To make Engage, you must :travel in straight line and have LOS and movement allowance, you check all conditions, if they are OK then Engage action can be made if not, let say no LOS, you can:
A. make a move action to get into LOS, allowing 2nd action to be completed but with limited travel distance (used to move)

Same is with travel (max movement allowance) , you've completed an Action (travel), you want compete another Action (travel), you must check if conditions will let you to do it.

It's rly simple, each action is individual and have some effect on following model's action.It's different from other systems were you have only one type of Movement (travel) action or no Unique actions at all. Here in WZR each model from the squad can make different actions,one is on Sentry one Hiding one in CC, the complexity is in place to make funky stuff like ,Move to LOS and Engage...

Grzechu, it's not 1st or last gaming system which might have rule disputes, but Errata and FAQ in most of the cases is fixing them, even for Big Boys, as long as we give clarification to the rules dispute and provide necessary errata then I am 100% convinced that we are on the good path.


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