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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Please understand that all my game experience comes from playing Capitol vs Cybertronic. So this report does have some bias.

After multiple games of Warzone, me and my Cybertronic opponent have really tried to cheeze out the system. The thing we have noticed the most, is that vehicles, are much more sturdy than troops. Light vehicles are usually worth more than their equivalent troop cost, due to the randomization of SP damage. So we have both worked to try and max out the Light Vehicles in our army lists (using proxys where needed). We have discovered there are some big problems at low point values (Tournament Standard Organizational Chart). Almost to the point of wondering who playtested the ruleset. The issues we have found are:

1) Purple Shark Swarm
2) Orca as a "Light" walker.

[Math]
Note for the purpose of this discussion we are basing the "wound value" of a walker on a mathematical formulae for the average number of hits the vehicle has to take before it dies. It works out to this Wounds to Kill == ( 1/2 * (Total number of SP) +1)

Purple Shark Swarm.
Purple Sharks are a FANTASTIC unit. They have a movement of 7, They have a wound equivalency of 6 (( 1/2 * 9) +1) AV 12 hits before they die. They also have the most mega gun in the game. The Quad Mounted M606 LMG. THis sucker pumps out 6! ST14 shots, AND its not held back by "slow to reload". It can be upped by cards.

So for a full squad, you get 3 Purple Sharks. So for 150 points you get:
18 AV 12 wounds (At -4 to hit! because fo the Turbo Jet rule)
18 STR 14 shots per activation.

For an equivalency in troops: Lets look at Cybertronic Armored Chasseurs. For 150 points you get:
6 AV 14 wounds
12 STR 13 shots.
Now movement wise, ACs have Blink, so I think its a wash for manuverability. For attack power, the sharks are 30% more efective. and for survival power, the sharks are THREE TIMES more effective all at -4 to hit!

Plus, for 10 extra points you can take SIX of them in an army, using the Capitol special rules. I would be foolish NOT to take these in every army. Especialy in the "Standard" tournament army.

But it gets even better for me.

ORCA "LIGHT" Walker
The Orca is a BEAST. For 165 points (only 15 points more than a Purple Shark Squad), I get:
((1/2*15)+1) 9 AV 14 wounds. Now that would seem like much less than a Purple Shark Squad.. but wait.. I have a special rule that if I run out of SP in Weapon Control, I can move all the SP from Driver to Weapon Control, thus staying alive even longer. Ill say that give me at least +1 wound equivalency.

Weapon wise, I get:
a 30" range, 2 shot ST 16 machine gun
a 18" range, 1 shot ST 18 autocannon
a 24" range, blast template, 3 shot ST 12 rocket launcher.
and I can take TWO of them per Light Vehicle slot!

Now lets look at Cybertronic.
For the same 165 points, they get the Eradicator Death Droid. It has ((1/2*16)+1) == 9 AV 15 wounds. So one AV higher than the Orca, but no special abilities for survival, so its a wash there.

Stat wise, the EDD has two higher move, but WORSE WP skill and CC skill. So wash as well.
Weapon wise the EDD has
a 24" range 8 shot ST 13 machine gun.
a 23" rainge 2 shot ST 15 template scorcher, than can also be fired as a flamethrower.

So the EDD has a slightly higher attack capability at a lower ST level. Id give slight advantage to the EDD. But here is the kicker.

the EDD is a HEAVY VEHICLE. In a tournament, or low point "Standard Organziational Chart" game... YOU CANT EVEN TAKE ONE. TOO BAD. So if They cant.. why can I?? Is the Orca truly a light vehicle? Im thinking No. Well too bad, cause in a tournament Im taking TWO. Cause I can.

Solutions
Our thoughts are this.
1) Purple sharks are to cheap for what they do. Up them from 50 points to 75 points
OR
Up them by 10 points to 60 points but drop their ROF from 6 to 4, and move the driver SP down to 2.

2) Move Orcas to Heavy Vehicles. (which would cause much crying and gnashing of teeth)
OR
Up EDDs by 15 points, and make them Light Walkers.
OR
Give Cybertronic an equivalent in the Voltiger, but make it a squad of 1-3 to counter the large masses of light infantry that I can put on the field. this would be a good option regardless.
OR Get rid of the rule that allows me to take addtional light vehicles as Support troops.

Another last thought would be, should every army have access to weapon(s) that cause multiple SP damage when fired against a vehicle.

I would really like to see some addtional people chime in here with their thoughts of Light Vehicles versus troops, and what other armies (Bauhaus, Mishima, Brotherhood, etc) can do with massed Light Vehicles. Please post all results in favor or against.

Thanks,
Dave


Last edited by David Hartman on Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:19 pm 
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Question, how do you take two Orca per support slot? I can not say much else but it sounds unbalanced.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:50 pm 
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31st “Ironsiders” Light Armoured Recon Battalion: Replace one ‘Support’ Slot on the Offensive
Organisation Chart with an additional ‘Light Vehicle / Monster’ Slot. Cost 0 Points.

Allows me to have 2 Light Vehicle slots in a Standard Organizational Chart (Tournament).


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:10 pm 
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
ok, two slots. Not two Orcas for one slot. Check.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:39 am 
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So lets look at the proliferation of light vehicles in the army lists:


Availibilty of Light Vehicles per Faction:
Code:

Faction      |Light Vehicle    |  # PER Squad       |   Total possible  in Tourney List
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capitol      |Purple Shark     | 1-3                |    (4 Troop, 3 Support, Vehcile) == 24.
Capitol      | Orca            | 1                  |  (1 Troop, 1 Support) == 2
  -----------|-----------------| -------------------|---------------------------------------------
Bauhus       |   Artillery     | 1-3                |     (3 Support) = 9
Bauhus       |   Vorreiter     | 2-6                |     (1 Vehicle) = 6
Bauhus       |   Vulcan        | 1-3                |     (1 Vehicle) = 3
  -----------|-----------------| -------------------|---------------------------------------------
Brotherood   |   Judicator     |  1-3               |     (1 Vehicle) = 3
  -----------|-----------------| -------------------|---------------------------------------------
Mishima      |   Meka          |  1-2               |     (1 Vehicle) = 2
  -----------|-----------------| -------------------|---------------------------------------------
Legion       |   Necrobeast    |  1-2               |     (1 Vehicle) = 2
  -----------|-----------------| -------------------|---------------------------------------------
Cybertron    |  Voltiger       |  1                 |     (1 Vehicle) = 1



There is a HUGE disparity between army lists of who can take what. Most commonly you see 3 light vehicles. Capital can take two dozen. Lowly Cybertronics can take ONE. This furthers the argument that Purple Sharks should be toned down, Orcas should be moved to Heavy (or reduced to 1 per tourney list), and Voltigers should be upped to a squad of 1-3.

It almost feels like whoever was writing the army books started with Capital and Bauhaus and by the time they got to Mishima and Cybertronics, they ran out of steam.

So the question is, do the game designers ever frequent the board? Are they receptive to feedback?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:31 am 
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Do you have the army point costs for these sets as well? 26 purple should be close to 1300p, correct? What is the cost of the others and what options do you need to select to enable these lists?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:54 am 
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They way you put it - yes there is a disparity in the amount of vehicles the factions can take. But, equally there is a disparity in how many tough monsters each factions can take. Some factions are, fluff wise, more prone to have vehicles/special forces/monsters etc. Capitol is the light vehicles corporation.
That is one reason for Capitol having access to cheap vehicles.

Is this balanced? I'm not sure, I agree that sharks are great but consider this: An aimed action vs a vehicle lets you choose location (very important), and as they have only generally 2 SP and low armour value they can go down fast. As they cost 50 points each you get considerably more troops for one shark.
Many armies also have access to weapons that have AVV without needing to tailor the equipment specifically to meet vehicles. Bahaus have grenade launchers on panzerknackers, cybertronic have RoF 2 AVV1 weapons on the chasseours and Brotherhood have a lot of Art powers that can hurt vehicles.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:15 pm 
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Orca is great but sloooow so easy to be manoeuvred and have no H2H effectiveness at all. All fraction have skills to take vehicles down. Mishima's Tiger Dragons rapid deployment can kill an Orca fast (with Engage and additional action (T2B) they do have 7AVV)! Pretorian Stalkers with their fantastic anti vehicle flamer (AVV12)... Even other walkers. 2 Mekas can do it faaast. And remember. In 1k games those Orcas are only worth 1/3 in points. Capitol troops are not as good as other troop units.

If You play with 45-55% board covered with terrain those Orcas are not as good as on paper. Their pathetic movement value makes then hard to move around. All vehicles are bulky, so easy to hit as well.

If I were Bauhaus player I would go for 2-3 Power Fisted Vulcans to kill those pesky Orcas fast. :)

Aim action can help A LOT as well.

I have to agree that Orca will be a common sight on a field of battle but this choice is so obvious that all players should know how to deal with them.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:19 pm 
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Sebulba wrote:
They way you put it - yes there is a disparity in the amount of vehicles the factions can take. But, equally there is a disparity in how many tough monsters each factions can take. Some factions are, fluff wise, more prone to have vehicles/special forces/monsters etc. Capitol is the light vehicles corporation.
That is one reason for Capitol having access to cheap vehicles.

Is this balanced? I'm not sure, I agree that sharks are great but consider this: An aimed action vs a vehicle lets you choose location (very important), and as they have only generally 2 SP and low armour value they can go down fast. As they cost 50 points each you get considerably more troops for one shark.
Many armies also have access to weapons that have AVV without needing to tailor the equipment specifically to meet vehicles. Bahaus have grenade launchers on panzerknackers, cybertronic have RoF 2 AVV1 weapons on the chasseours and Brotherhood have a lot of Art powers that can hurt vehicles.



While that is a good point, you can clearly see from the stat list posted above, how skewed this is. I've been saying that the EDD has stats comparable to a light vehicle slot since the first PDF's were released. There are two things here that are problematic.

* 1: Capitol can take Purple Sharks as troops. I would not begrudge this one bit, if there was some restriction, but instead, it's just that they can take all of the troop slots as troops. If it was one or two as troops, it would be a lot better, as it allows the Capitol player to take an Orca as well. Two squads of Purple Shark, two squads of Airborne and an Orca with henry Thomas as the leader is brutal enough as it is. Speaking of the Orca, that leads us to point number 2.

* 2: The Orca. Either the Orca is as good as a Heavy Vehicle (EDD), or the EDD is as "bad" as a Light Vehicle. Either way, it's unbalanced. It would be a little less unbalanced if it's option 1, if it weren't for the Doctrine allowing you to take a second one in a standard game.

Anyone who has played a game of Warhammer 40k knows about target saturation. That means that if you want to use vehicles, you need to have so many targets that target priority means that some of them survive. Capitol has access to absolutely great target saturation. If you come prepared for a "regular" game, and he shows up with 4 troop squads of Purple Shark, supported by a Orca weapon platform and a custom built Tech hero, you are basically screwed. They have to high movement, and way to high firepower to counter effectively unless you are loaded with AVV weapons. Any objective unclaimed at the end is easily grabbed by them, and you will basically have to leave the Orca to it, as you have to focus all your fire on taking out those sharks. As they are vehicles, they can't break, so you have to kill them.

Now, speaking of target saturation. Cybertronic has no available target saturation until they reach Heavy games. You can have 1 voltigeur, with no option at all to increase the amount (through doctrines etc). Anyone who faces Cybertronic can take that out with maybe one or two AVV weapons. Target saturation is a lot better in Heavy Games, where we can have a maximum of 5 AV targets, some quite tough, but then again, in heavy games you are facing the likes of Grizzly, Leviathan and Icarus. All of which are supported by a larger number of Light Vehicles (up to 6 Vulkans/12 Vorreiters, 6 Judicators, and Capitols lol army of Vehicles, the only ones equally screwed as CyberT is DL, with 4 LV and 1 HV).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:47 pm 
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As a Cybertronic player, who to be clear - hasn't played any games yet, on paper I think Capitol are pretty broken in how many vehicles they can field and how survivable they are.

There's been a few battle reports where I look at Capitol lists and just struggle to find tools in our arsenal to deal with them. The only real option in my opinion is spamming minimum sized Chasseur squads, with rocket launcher upgrades in every unit. Certainly it's the only thing I would contemplate taking to a tournament.


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