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 Post subject: Minimum Facing and Cover
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:16 am 
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The rules read you need 25% of the model covered to gain cover modifier. It then spells out that each model will gain cover based on a minimum cover facing based on size (in half-inch increments for the minimum size and one assumes 25% of that minimum facing) and that the actual proportions and pose of the model are ignored.

You don't need it both ways. If you want 25%, then use the actual proportions and pose of the model, and yes there is some subjectivity involved in determining is it 25%, but since the game is liberal about handing out cover the error should always side with the model targeted, not the attacker.

OR

Go with the minimum facing value which could be based on 25% of the Minimum Facing Value and not the model's dimensions. If so you can have a value in place and not list 25%.

Instead of doing the rules half way as it is now, spell it out. If the intent is 25% of the minimum value and the minimum value is listed, just list 25% of that value as that is the real number used in the game.

For example, Small models have a 1 inch minimum facing and 25 percent of that is 1/4 inch. So any model that is small based needs a piece of terrain to cover them by 1/4 inch to gain Cover modifier. If you are Medium base and the minimum facing is 1.5 inches, then one quarter of that is 3.75 which is essentially a bit more than 1/3 of an inch (slightly more), and so on and so forth.

The original chronopia/warzone work on this concept of percent of the model (like most other games now) and it was 25 or 50 percent (for soft and hard cover) so instead of eyeballing to determine how much percent of the model it is, which is complicating it unnecessarily. I like how it is a single percent, and once determined the modifier is based on the type of cover. That is a good thing and improvement.

If you want 25%, fine it simply means it is easier to gain cover bonus, but if minimum facing is in the game and dimensions are ignored on a model, base that 25% on that minimum facing value and just round it off to a measurement that can be measured on the standard ruler (ie like 3/8 since there are 8 little dashes on an inch go by 1/8 increments). So if it is 3.75 that is around 3/8 right? correct me if it isn't but you get the idea I'm getting at)

Thus if size is based on base size, and there are at least 3 types of bases, then Cover modifiers should have a base minimum measurement to physically measure to see if the model based on the Base size of that model can qualify for cover and get rid of this 25% statement (it is still there, in the calculation of how you get those minimum cover values.

Call it Minimum Cover Value if you want, and put it in the rules section with the Minimum Facing (or in the Cover section I guess but that minimum facing sort of does that)


Last edited by Horned God on Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:11 am 
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I feel the rule as it is now is a mess.

25% coverage can only roughly be determined. It gets even messier when I am at an elevation where most of my targets on the ground have no coverage whatsoever from anything.

25% are measured from where?
a) From the base? Then my model couldnt shoot at anything if standing behind a wall because the base doesnt see anything
b) From the head of the model? Then again you would need to get down to head level of the model to see if a fictive line of sight would be impaired by at least 25% of the other model.

What are 25% if you are standing behind barbed wire? How would you even measure that? The height of the wire?

What are 25% if you are standing behind some horizontal small pipes? Must I take a ruler and figure out how much % this really is?

How can I figure out if a wall is covering 25% of the targeted model if there is a bigger wall before the small wall that already covers 50%?

I would have preferred it if they just left out the 25% all together, just saying "if any part of the targeted model is behind any cover, do this...". Measure from the head of the shooting model and see if you see it fully or not. Ignore cover that is already covered by other cover (i.e. small wall behind tall wall).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Dunnagh: If you have issues with determining cover I propose to check before the game starts or just agree with your opponent on "what gets cover from what".

IMO the 25% cover is there to stop abuse. "There is a small stone in front of my mini, I get hard cover".

I don`t think you can create cover rules that will be bulletproof. "You just have to let some s#$! slide" ;). I played 3 games so far and I had no issues with the 25% rule. There`s a lot more things in the system that are more problematic.


trikk


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:22 am 
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@Dunnagh

The a way the rules have traditionally been stated are based on percent. By tradition I mean past games of Warzone and Chronopia and many other games that evolved from it. Most of them, I believe, state 50%, not 25% so if the intent is only to have 25% of something near or in front of a model covering it to get a cover save, then that is liberal. It is saying it is not hard to get cover saves. Plus the way WZR reads these bonuses stack and when you get 3+ they are out of LOS. The intention then should fit the wording of the rule.


The rules then go into minimum facing value, which I think fine, but if that is the case, drop the percent language from cover saves, you do not need it. If you have a 1 inch minimum facing for a model, and 25% of that is 1/4 inch then to gain cover save a piece of cover must be in obscuring the view of an attacking model for the targeting model to gain a Cover modifier. The key then is the perspective of the attacking model to the target model. The 1/4 inch is measured from the base of the model, and to be specific from the top of the base of the model (as the thing does have a small dept to it right). Measure from the top of the model's base to the top of the cover used, and if 1/4 inch is present, their is a cover modifier for the attack.

Now, for specific types of cover, like barb wire, and the fact the rules don't go into abstract cover for a piece of terrain. Say you have a piece of terrain that you consider Light Woods, and a model is standing on it, near the edge of it but not more than 2 inches into. Therefore it is not out of LOS, but standing on the piece of terrain (though in total plain sight) the model would get Light Cover as we are using the abstract concept that being on it the Light Cover piece of terrain is all that is needed.

The rules for WZR don't go into that but as you can see the concept exists and can/has been used.

For barbed wire you could simply stay if the piece of terrain obscures the view of an attacking model the target model gains a Light cover modifier.

The concept is simply being in front of obscuring the view of the attacking model, and nothing to do with percent or minimum facing. That would be simple. The rules would need to have a little entry for things like this. Since the concept of barb wire is not new, yes you could list most if not all common types of terrain like this. We have Fox Holes, we have all manner of things but I doubt someone can list something that we don't already know about.

Key words that should be in the rules are: obscuring terrain, target and attacking model. All else is how you determine it: percent, minimum facing, etc.)

Point is: yes you can make a bulletproof rule (s) for this that will cover 99% of all instances.

How do I know? I'm going about doing so right now. Will it be the official rules for WZR? Nope, but it will be cover rules that will work and be clear for 99% of the instances you'll encounter cover, and that is the goal right? These concepts are not unique to any single game, they existed before and will exist after Warzone Resurrection is among the many 'dead games' (which will eventually happen).

The task for Prodos is to decide how it will be for Warzone Resurrection, nothing more, but as it is now, it needs more clarity in the language, and unpacking the concepts within, and if that language matches the intention. If the intention is to slap on a cover save if the least bit of cover is in the way, 25% indicates that, then start from there and proceed.

@Trikk you can have clear rules. The attitude you can't have bulletproof rules is not productive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:32 am 
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What I meant is bulletproof "cover rules". I will gladly read your rules, but I believe it will still be a matter of talking and settling with your opponent.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:22 pm 
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Here's some rules for Cover. Anyone is free to post what they think. Keep in mind I'm modifying the traditional concepts embedded in the warzone/chronopia rules, and yet keeping the novel concept of minimum facing value. Gone is the concept of determining cover modifier based on percent of the model covered and instead defining the amount of cover based on a pre-determined Minimal Facing value (which is based on the size of the model). For the record, most models are never more than 4 (maybe 5 actual inches tall). I am using the category of Size (SZ) which WZR does not but you can easily modify that aspect of these rules. If you use WZR RAW then a Small models Minimum Facing Area would be 1/4 inch (which is 25% of 1 inch), and a medium model would be 3/4 inch, and large model would be 1 and 1/4 inch (as 1.25 inches x 4 = 5 inches). You could modify this aspect. It boils down to how easy you want to allow qualifying cover for a model.

I also dropped the cumulative cover modifier (stacking) and instead went with a -2 RC (or RS) per piece of intervening cover and at 3 pieces it blocks LOS. e.g. A solid cover modifier (-4 RC) plus 2 additional pieces of intervening terrain would be -4 plus -2 plus -2 = -8 RC modifier for the attack. Rather than stacking multiple -4 modifiers.

Ranged Combat
A model’s ability to make a Ranged Attack is defined by the model’s Ranged Combat (RC) trait. A model must have a clear Line of Sight (LOS) to the targeted model in order to make a successful Ranged Attack. If the attacking model has Line of Sight, but intervening terrain or models (friendly or enemy) are present between the attacking model and the targeted model then the targeted model may attempt to claim a Cover modifier. If a Cover modifier cannot be claimed the Ranged Attack suffers a -1 RC penalty due to the fact there is intervening terrain or models (friendly or enemy) present between the attacking and targeted models.

Claiming Cover Modifier
To claim a Cover modifier the intervening terrain or model (friendly or enemy) must obfuscate (or Cover) the Minimum Facing Area (MFA) of the targeted model based on the targeted models Size (SZ). To determine if this condition is met draw an imaginary line—from the perspective or angel of the attacking model—between the attacking and targeted models. At each point where intervening terrain or models (friendly or enemy) intersect along the imaginary line measure vertically the distance of this intervening terrain or model from the bottom (or base) of the intersecting point to the top edge of the intersecting point. If the vertical area meets or exceeds the Minimum Facing Area (MFA), then the targeted model qualifies for a Cover modifier. The Minimal Facing Area (MFA) is based on the Size (SZ) of the targeted model as follows:

Size 1 (¼ inch), Size 2 (½ inch), Size 3 (¾ inch),
Size 4 (1 inch), Size 5 (1¼ inch)

If the Minimal Facing Area condition is met the attacking model suffers a Cover modifier penalty to the Ranged Attack determined by the type of intervening Cover. The two types of Cover are:

Obscuring Cover: Light cover including barbed wire, chain link fence, foliage and low-lying bushes, and other similar types of terrain that obscure the Line of Sight of the attacking model, but cannot completely block LOS. The attacking model suffers a Cover modifier of -2 RC from Obscuring Cover.

Solid Cover: Hard cover including intervening models (friendly and enemy), impassable terrain, trees and foliage considered impassable, walls, ruins, and other solid structures which would completely block LOS if the model were able to fully gain concealment using the terrain granting the Cover modifier, but currently a portion is within Line of Sight of the attacking model. The attacking model suffers a Cover modifier of -4 RC from Solid Cover.

In addition, three other conditions apply to qualifying Cover modifiers:

• If multiple pieces of Obscuring or Solid Cover are intervening between the attacking and target model, then add a -2 RC modifier is applied to the attack for each separate piece of interfering Obscuring or Solid Cover.

• Interfering models that are within 2 inches of each other are all considered part of the same Solid Cover. If a model is more than 2 inches from another model then it is considered another piece of interfering Solid Cover and thus would add another -2 RC.

• If 3 or more pieces of Obscuring or Solid Cover are intervening between the attacking and target model then the Line of Sight is considered blocked and the attacking model may not make a Ranged Attack against the target model.


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