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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:28 am 
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Been playing Warzone for a few months now as an Imperials player. Have not played with Wolfbanes since im still assembling the 35 models i just bought for them lol but i got about 20 games of MOW in.

I played Warhammer 40k for about 4 years as Orks/Tau (for those of you about to scorn me for being a Tau player, i played them BEFORE the Riptide's appearance and i scarcely use the dang thing anyway because i prefer devilfish/piranha tactics) and lately the rules for 40k have been getting ridiculous. Rules upon rules that dont define specific situations when another rule says something can never happen etc etc etc. But, 40k rant over.
Warzone so far to me has been the answer to my problem and i am loving it. The rules are vastly simpler and even explain the oddball situation when weird rules collide (thank you gas rules vs Mortificators utilizing Void lol).

However, there are a few rules i dont agree with. Either because its too powerful imho or is just irritating and unfun.



1) Power Shots - i absolutely despise this rule as it is currently. Literally any gun, including a lowly Pistol, can get lucky enough to bypass super-advanced, impenetrable armor? I can understand larger guns (say, Str16+) but why can literally every gun do this?
-- I like the idea of a strong, luck-based shot but this one is too far. The group i play with agree that it should only ignore regular armor if below Str16, and at Str16+ it ignores invul/heals alike. And rather than a complete bypass of vehicle armor, a Power Shot should double its AVV value. That way random troops with AVV- weapons cant hurt a vehicle with a lucky roll.

My reasoning for this) I have had vehicles/have killed vehicles through pure Power Shot luck, with maybe 1 legitimate damage in the mix from troops and their heavy weapon. Likewise, a model i spend 75pts on (Golden Lions) tend to die before they get anything because of Powershot luck bypass their invul...from TROOPS! - it makes invul armor and vehicle armor too expensive since literally every gun can bypass it, and in a game of dice that can either never happen or happen a dozen times in a row. This change only prevents common troops from obliterating heavier units.



2) Elevation vs Range Attacks - As it is written right now, elevation doesnt play a factor when determining intervening terrain. This makes posting snipers almost impossible as every little rock, tree, or sandbag counts towards the maximum of 3 (4 with sniper) that you can shoot by, even if its 4" away from the base of your 8" tall perch it still counts.
-- Since everything is based on inches in regarding to elevation, i suggest every 3" of elevation ignores 1 piece of 1.5" or smaller terrain except claimed cover. That way perching people on a building actually becomes a threat you have to deal with, rather than ignore because you have 3 pieces of rocks between you and them.

My reasoning) What is the point of any unit with Sniper qualifications, even if they dont have Sniper, when terrain they can clearly see over by a mile makes them incapable of doing their job? This change is to remove the before mentioned problem of a random barricade being 4" from the base of an 8" tall perch, without bringing in the issues of "true line of sight" that 40k has *shudders*.



3) Weapon types - I feel like the weapon types are designed to screw over troops and nothing else. Almost everything either has no negative modifier or its only a -1, while all troops suffer -2 to blast (which is a VERY common attack).
--Admittedly this is a harder one to fix.....by a longshot lol... but i still wish it got some looking at. A lot of weapons have an unusual types (Stomp is Piercing......wat? i would guess Blast if anything since theres no Blunt/Crush type) and there are no units that shrug off certain types easier than normal. Piercing is the most common standard weapon, so wheres the heavy armor guy that actually has a +2 modifier against piercing, but -3 to Plasma?
I could go on for eons about this but i think i already said my point.

My reasoning) The whole weapon types give a feel of rock-paper-scissors, but its very poorly implemented. I would like the weapon type to actually be a thought when choosing guns, as right now literally everyone i know doesnt even pay attention to it unless its a ranged Plasma for the reroll potential.


All in all i love this game. The fact that these are my only major quarks is a bit of an astonishment for how new the game is. Theres several little things but you cant make a game perfect, i'd rather work on the glaring issues than the picky ones. I have about 1800pts in Imperials and plan to get more as models come out.
Thanks for reading!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:38 am 
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Hi mate,

regarding No1, that's been a rule since 1st ed. Power shots (or perfect success as it used to be known, with 20 being Fumble) has always 'just gone through'. If you're getting that many 1's, I'd suggest testing your dice (place them in water and spin them, see what they come up with. It should be a different number most of the time). However, it can be explained by a lucky shot getting through a target's eyepiece, hitting a vital fuel line, etc. The real key to this game is a table with good amounts of terrain so that you can move tactically to avoid being shot (at least, not without cover) or you can metagame the activation sequence to ensure you're not suffering too badly.

for 2, I think you're reading the cover rules wrong. Page 28 defines LOS and Facing Area. You look through true LOS (as per the definition), and determine if at least 25% of the target is obscured for the cover to count. Elevated models that can see over cover have a better chance to ignore it (if the target is no longer at least 25% obscured). The facing area part is used if the model is built smaller than others (i.e. kneeling vs standing).

For 3, there are exceptions where a model is less vulnerable to some weapon types. However, you want to be aware that there is a lot of scissors-paper-rock in this game. Blast weapons should be top priority targets if you want to protect your troops. Plasma is your biggest threat for heavy infantry. In all cases, there are a range of ways to defend yourself, including armour boosts, heal, camouflage, cover, cards, sentry, hide... there's not just one solution, and this game is complex enough to give players those options.

Please let me know if there's any other things that you're having trouble with, and we'll see if we can help you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:26 pm 
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#1: I'm ok with freak occurrences like that. I partially agree though that it seems a bit ridiculous that a AVV- weapon can critically hit a tank, but if anything, I think that it should be tied to the vehicle's AV. For example, if an AVV- shot strikes a location with AV14 or better, the power shot is reduced to a normal hit. To me, AV14+ signals serious armour plating and protected wiring, fuel lines and so forth.

#2: I interpret this the same way as ADG_Wraith. His wording is spot on.

#3 I too miss more armour types with extra protection against various damage types. I've seen one or two so far, but there should be more. An (almost) fully enclosing suit of layered plate armour such as a Golden Lion, Juggernaut or Armoured Chasseur should be able to withstand a bomb going off better than someone wearing softer protection. Another kind of reasoning here is that a Juggernaut suit is probably very little more than hydraulics and an inch or two of steel (and a bit of padding for the soldier), making it perfect for running/punching through walls. This could be shown with extra protection against blast or piercing, but less protection against plasma since that kind of armour would be bad at bleeding off the heat from a plasma type attack. At the same time, I imagine an Armoured Chasseur, having a fair bit of ceramics or ablative armour, coupled with cooling systems, making them better at dealing with plasma attacks.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:44 am
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Thanks for the response!

Like i said i like the random super-strong shot ideal. After all its technically possible for an M16 in real life to critically damage an armored vehicle with a single shot, just insanely unlikely. Likewise bulletproof bodyarmor only works if they hit that area, and im prior military so i know first hand its a very small percentage of our body it actually covers lol. Trenchers, for example, give the appearance theyre a tad bit more armored than modern troops, but Golden Lions are a whole other level lol.
Im mainly just peeved about it because random, standard issue troop guns can pull off the same super-strength at the same odds as big guns (except a few like Grey Ghost's with a 1-4 chance on Aiming obviously). It makes me want to spam troops and take next to no support/vehicles, and im not the only one feeling that way in my group.

As for 2, i reread the rules and i see where youre getting at. Apparently my group and i suck at reading that rule lol. Ignore that part of the post as thats me being dumb.

Blast weapons (on 3 now) are the only ones i actually pay attention to when my opponent has them, because like you said ADG they kill my troops, and face it Trenchers are not cheap lol. Not the most expensive troop but theyre not far off. I dont ever feel like i need to prioritize anything else because either i never take a neg at all, or i dont even fear that kind of weapon anyway. Golden Lions are weak to Piercing instead of Plasma for some odd reason, but since thats a troop weapon type i kinda cant prioritize that one. Also its only a -1 anyway, and im usually rolling IA.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:27 pm 
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Fair point- if you run all Trenchers you'll be worried about blasts more than anything else. This is especially true as a number of your tools to deal with them (camouflage, cover, smoke) are negated by templates (STs or (G) weapons don't need to target anyone, just place and fire away!).

However, some real-life tactics can come to the fore here. I'm not sure which country you're from, Vineheart, but we are constantly smashed on keeping our spacing. In WZR, Blast weapons typically have a template of some sort, so look to avoid making attractive blast zones. This means an immediate tradeoff from the Guarded skill of your SL, usefulness of Medic, and the ability to Get The Gun- all of these skills require you to stay close to each other. I see a lot of games where squads bunch up instead of using that LD bubble to spread out and find covered firing positions.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:34 pm 
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That is true about the spacing thing. In 40k its a 2" from each model rather than a central point, so spreading out in that game is a bit difficult. I tend to stay pretty spread out in WZR until im trying to focus fire something down, and my own guys are in the way so i have to get within 1" to claim them to avoid LoS penalties. Usually by the time im forced to do this ive eliminated all except card-based templates though.
I've had my spacing bite me in the butt several times, but nowhere near as bad as being bunched up. Bauhaus large blasts (im used to calling them pie plates...40k term lol) from cards can appear at any moment and even though its not too terribly strong, its a LARGE BLAST so byebye trenchers if theyre too bunched up lol. I'd rather risk losing my HMG or even my squad leader because the nearest model wasnt within 3" after the third shot being fired at me thinning the numbers down, than risk that pie plate from nowhere getting a sexy landing.
Get the Gun is a rule i adore, btw. 40k and Warmachine doesnt have anything like that, so bringing a special, expensive gun can be more risky than you might think since it can be singled out. WZR atleast gives you a chance to keep it, though i dont get why squad commanders cant do it tbh.
Also im from USA.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:38 am 
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Plenty of us have played 40K before, but I think there are some gaming terms that are pretty mainstream- I'd put 'pie plate' in that category.


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