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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:51 am 
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A while ago I asked this question:

Quote:
Can a flamer shoot when engaged? For example, I upgrade a Valkyrie with a AC-31 Cleansing Flamethrower, I move to with 1.5 inches from an enemy model, can I shoot the flamethrower?


To which you replied:

Quote:
Only certain weapons can make shooting actions whilst engaged. Check the weapons area in the rulebook.


To which I replied:

Quote:
You said to check the weapons section, but type (F) isn't listed in the Armory. Would it be somewhere else?


I'm still waiting on an answer. I've been playing it more restrictive (ie., no) I checked the 1.1 pdf and there is still nothing in there. I also checked the template weapons section. And it's not there either. If I could get an answer that would be great, as I'm trying to decide on the how I want to kit out my units going forward.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:46 am 
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I think it would be a bad idea to use the Flamethrower in CC. Since part of the rules state:

If any engaged Model is within a Flame Tamplate, every Model within CCWR of the Model within the Flame Template receives a Wound Effect or SP Damage.

So you would burn yourself if you throw that out in CC. Which is very realistic since it is a cloud of flames, anything blocking that pyre to close to yourself and you will probably burn yourself, making the gastubes (or whatever makes the flames) explode. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:15 am 
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yeah but if it´s the last model standing and has good chances to hit 3-5 enemies he really might want to choose this. Valid question.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:42 am 
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From rules:
"Activated Models that are already Engaged have only 1 Action Point to spend. This AP can only be spent on a Special or Basic Close Combat Action or Move Action." :)
I read that as by default you can not shoot while engaged, even though some characters do have special rules that allow this.
The reference to armoury could be that Pistols and Shotguns can be used in CC, but only to attack models you are engaged with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:15 pm 
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What is asked for is for certain a section for (FT) just as there is for (ST) on page 40, just to be on the clear.

But yes the shotgun in close combat do not let you place a template, since the range is reduced to CCWR. And without any specific range for a shotgun in CC it will be the models base CCWR.

Small base = B2B
Medium base = 1"
Large = 2"


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:23 am 
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Pax wrote:
I think it would be a bad idea to use the Flamethrower in CC. Since part of the rules state:

If any engaged Model is within a Flame Tamplate, every Model within CCWR of the Model within the Flame Template receives a Wound Effect or SP Damage.

So you would burn yourself if you throw that out in CC. Which is very realistic since it is a cloud of flames, anything blocking that pyre to close to yourself and you will probably burn yourself, making the gastubes (or whatever makes the flames) explode. :)


While in most cases you would be right, Valkyries have an advantage here that most small based don't have, their CCWR is 1.5". This effectively mean my 4" SFT has an effective range of 2.5".

The rule for taking wounds say all models within the CCWR of the model hit, so if I can get to with fractions on an inch to fire the chances of hitting more then one model are drastically better. But according to the rules, because I am within my CCWR I am engaged with the enemy and so I need to know if I can shoot while engaged.

If not, to shoot the SFT flamer I have to stop 1.6" away. If that's the intention, fine, but it does dramatically effect the effectiveness of of the AC-31 flamethrower.

And as has been stated elsewhere there might be times where you are willing to take the chance, and risk a wound for models other then the Valkyries.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:26 am 
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Sebulba wrote:
From rules:
"Activated Models that are already Engaged have only 1 Action Point to spend. This AP can only be spent on a Special or Basic Close Combat Action or Move Action." :)
I read that as by default you can not shoot while engaged, even though some characters do have special rules that allow this.
The reference to armoury could be that Pistols and Shotguns can be used in CC, but only to attack models you are engaged with.


And if I start the turn not engaged and move to within my CCWR? Can I shoot?

The Armory also specifically says which guns cannot be used in CC, type (F) are not covered in either direction. I still say it's a valid question.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:18 am 
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belgarath97 wrote:
While in most cases you would be right, Valkyries have an advantage here that most small based don't have, their CCWR is 1.5". This effectively mean my 4" SFT has an effective range of 2.5".

The rule for taking wounds say all models within the CCWR of the model hit, so if I can get to with fractions on an inch to fire the chances of hitting more then one model are drastically better. But according to the rules, because I am within my CCWR I am engaged with the enemy and so I need to know if I can shoot while engaged.

If not, to shoot the SFT flamer I have to stop 1.6" away. If that's the intention, fine, but it does dramatically effect the effectiveness of of the AC-31 flamethrower.

And as has been stated elsewhere there might be times where you are willing to take the chance, and risk a wound for models other then the Valkyries.


You only count as engaged if you are within your enemies CCWR, not your own. So if your own CCWR is further than the enemy it is safe to burst of that FT even if the enemy is within your CCWR, you could shoot them as well using any other ranged weapon. It would be your choice. :) The loss is that you would at that distance be unable to get a Engage bonus since you would not be able to travel your full MV towards that model if you wish to CC afterwards.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:23 am 
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I can't imagine that its intended that you are not engaged if within your own CCWR. There is even an example in the rules where Alakhai counts as engaged as he is within his own CCWR. The rules for disengage also support this interpretation. I know that the rules state that you are engaged if within the enemy's CCWR, but I believe that is just a clarification.

For moving and stopping within CCWR, I would say that the rules for starting engaged is the same - hence your remaining APs drop to 1 and you can only do limited actions.

Makes sense? Thats anyway how I will play it until a proper clarification is presented or someone convinces me otherwise :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Pax wrote:
belgarath97 wrote:
While in most cases you would be right, Valkyries have an advantage here that most small based don't have, their CCWR is 1.5". This effectively mean my 4" SFT has an effective range of 2.5".

The rule for taking wounds say all models within the CCWR of the model hit, so if I can get to with fractions on an inch to fire the chances of hitting more then one model are drastically better. But according to the rules, because I am within my CCWR I am engaged with the enemy and so I need to know if I can shoot while engaged.

If not, to shoot the SFT flamer I have to stop 1.6" away. If that's the intention, fine, but it does dramatically effect the effectiveness of of the AC-31 flamethrower.

And as has been stated elsewhere there might be times where you are willing to take the chance, and risk a wound for models other then the Valkyries.


You only count as engaged if you are within your enemies CCWR, not your own. So if your own CCWR is further than the enemy it is safe to burst of that FT even if the enemy is within your CCWR, you could shoot them as well using any other ranged weapon. It would be your choice. :) The loss is that you would at that distance be unable to get a Engage bonus since you would not be able to travel your full MV towards that model if you wish to CC afterwards.


Not true, if you look in the graphic right below the section on being engaged in Close Combat, it clearly says that because the models are within the larger bases CCWR, both models are engaged. I’m at work right now, so I don’t have the exact page number, but when I get home I will update this post.

(Edit)Page 63, the example shows a capitol trooper (CCWR=B2B) and Alakhai (CCWR=1.5") with the Trooper outside B2B and inside the 1.5" bubble. Line of text under the picture says "Both Models Are Engaged".


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