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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:50 am 
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TheDungen: I think that you will be unhappy then because Ilian army book has been announced as second after Imperial one. So you will see many freshly invented units to fulfil gaps in particular Apostle army. Not that it would be shocking. There are already units created 'just because we had cool idea' where they could use fluffy ones. For example Leviathan when there was Montana, Guardiani Oblati when we had Fury etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:15 pm 
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I know they've promised an Illian release but no one said anything about it being a separate faction, and since Ilian has 5 units in the past, (Warhounds, templars, wild riders, children of Ilian and nepharites) they will have to add at least 3 new unit concepts to make it viable as a stand alone faction. And even then it'll be a faction with very few units.
It makes much more sense to make them like they used to be one dark legion faction that can pick relatively freely from the apostles, and then as they introduce new units when they have ideas over time reconsider making them separate factions.

I don't mind new units, it's new factions I feel is a little early to start adding.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:39 pm 
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I got the impression Ilian will be a separate faction and I hope so.

I think it will work with the other Apostles as more or less separate factions, all have and can field armies (well Semai is a cornercase). It would also make sense as all apostles are not on the best of terms with each other (Ilian vs Algeroth and Semai for example).
There have been different units of templars in the past and they can easily create a few more. Then add children of Ilian, changelings, cultists and nepharites and an army list is starting to take form. New unheard creations would totally be supported by the fluff as well.

I would rather see them as different armies than just one Dark Legion with an odd mishmash of units form all over the place. :)
The tricky thing is to make Algeroth the main guy (as he should be) and not dilute his concept by allowing independant factions from the other apostles.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Separate Dark Legion armies? Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh. For me that always was the biggest downside of the newer editions. I loved how you could mix stuff in 1st edition. It made it more chaotic and it felt good.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:41 pm 
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They are quite separated by fluff...sure they work together but they also conspire against each other. Much like the corporations, so in my view they can be treated in that way - uniting against a common enemy but having their own personal agendas. There is for example a power struggle going on between Algeroth and Ilian, with Semai siding with Algeroth. I have never been a fan of chaotic Dark Legion/Apostles - it's too similar to another well known scifi universe. Besides, there is already quite a bit of diversity amongst Algeroth's ranks.. :)

I guess we just have to wait and see what they do with it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:41 pm 
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Actually they are not they are all accountable before the dark soul, the sourcebooks state that they halt their intrigue always shy of open warfare and that Algeroth supplies weapons and warmaterials for all of the legions (which is why all legionarries use the kratach). These are not the chaos gods, these are generals of one supreme evil, not elemental, not instinctive but a true intelligence. More akin to the dark one and the forsaken from wheel of time than the chaos gods of warhammer. Neither are the nepharites greater daemons who are slavishly loyal to their apostle, for an example Alakhai is said to conspire with Ilian against Algeroth (or was that Valpurgis? well Alakhai is conspiring against Algeroth at least)
Also many Nepharite Maguses in service of the armies of algeroth are supplied by Ilian, since that means she can keep an eye on Algeroth and cash in on his victories without having to set up full armies on her own (which isn't her style). The aforementioned nekromania is another example of how they are one force driven by one will in the end.
One supreme master a being older than the universe itself (or was born in it's waking moments, a being of void to balance existence).

I'll be very disappointed if they are separate armies.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:47 am 
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Yes Alakhai is conspiring against Algeroth, and is rumored doing this with Semai. There are all kinds of power struggles within the Legion, much like it is amongst the human race.
And while they all answer to the dark soul and have a common cause they are also enemies, Big Al openly opposes Ilian for example. All this is mentioned several times in the sourcebooks (hatred between Ilian and Algeroth is quite spelled out in the Ilian sourcebook).

Algeroth is the warlord and the main military force amongst the apostles. While the others might not field as large forces as him, they certainly fight and can muster smaller warbands fitting for WZR. That's also a reason why I see it working better with separate factions, it makes more sense due to the scale. :)

I fear that having dark legion as only one faction would dilute the indentities of the apostles. I don't want to see armies where you have a Nepharite of Semai leading a few children of Ilian, a group of heretic legionnaires, a pair of praetorian stalkers and finally a cairath as the icing of the cake. But that's me.. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:18 am 
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Why not have separate lists at lower point totals and allow combined lists for both Cartel and Legion at much higher point totals?


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:06 am 
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I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that the Legion will be split up into separate Apostle factions for game purposes. Love it or hate it, that is what I have gleaned so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixing army lists ?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:47 am 
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Sebulba wrote:
Yes Alakhai is conspiring against Algeroth, and is rumored doing this with Semai. There are all kinds of power struggles within the Legion, much like it is amongst the human race.
And while they all answer to the dark soul and have a common cause they are also enemies, Big Al openly opposes Ilian for example. All this is mentioned several times in the sourcebooks (hatred between Ilian and Algeroth is quite spelled out in the Ilian sourcebook).

Algeroth is the warlord and the main military force amongst the apostles. While the others might not field as large forces as him, they certainly fight and can muster smaller warbands fitting for WZR. That's also a reason why I see it working better with separate factions, it makes more sense due to the scale. :)

I fear that having dark legion as only one faction would dilute the indentities of the apostles. I don't want to see armies where you have a Nepharite of Semai leading a few children of Ilian, a group of heretic legionnaires, a pair of praetorian stalkers and finally a cairath as the icing of the cake. But that's me.. :?


Opposes yes politically but "While humanty remains free, all-out, open warfare will not happen between the apostles" pg 9 algeroth sourcebook (which means no war right now)

"He (Alakhai) schemes to displace his master, primarily by manipulating him towards a war with the other apostles" pg 79 Algeroth sourcebook. (Which means no war right now and that war would be disastrous for Algeroth)

"As Ilian has few citadels for her Nepharites to rule over, she often seconds them out to her brother citadels... without Ilian's nepharites many citadels would find their supplies of new soldiers for their campaign soon depleted" (Which proves Ilian prefers to aid the forces of other apostles to building her own armies.

"The dark legion often mounts combined operations, though, including forces from every apostles followers... However most of the dark legions forces are equipped using weapons produced by Algeroth, who trades with his fellow apostles for favours and souls, that is why the kratach is such a universal weapon"pg 115 Warzone 1st ed rulebook. (Once again proves they are one faction, no more enemies than the greater houses of Bauhaus)

But if you want the true reason. They are the Dark Legion not the dark legions. And while they may seek to end the war with humanity in as strong a position as possible there's a difference between that and open war.

And we are after all not playing the apostles, none of those are in the game (nor should they be), we are playing mere nepharites each with his own idividual personality and background.

Big Jim V wrote:
I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that the Legion will be split up into separate Apostle factions for game purposes. Love it or hate it, that is what I have gleaned so far.


The choice of calling the faction in the rulebook Dark Legion rather than Algeroth would seem to indicate otherwise.


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