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 Post subject: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:46 am 
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Hi there

Me and my friend are puzzled by the article in CTC #9 about the free closing action. Can someone makes it clearer for us please ?

Basically, the rules say:
If an Activated Model is Engaged due to an enemy Model’s CCWR, but the Activated Model is not in range of its own CCWR, then the Activated Model must perform a ‘Free Closing’ Action to bring itself into CCWR. The ‘Free Closing’ Action can only be made as a part of activating a non-vehicle model, before any Action Points are spent within the
Facing which the Model is Engaged with. A ‘Free Closing’ Action does not cost any Action Points. A Close Combat ‘Free Closing’ Action must be made against the closest Model. If more than one Model is within the same CCWR, the owning Player can select which Model to make the ‘Free Closing’ Action against.

We thought it was pretty simple: if you're mini is engaged in B2B, no need for free closing.

But in CTC #9, we have a situation where a Mishima Dragon is engaged in B2B by several dudes and the Tactical Point article says:
The other thing that comes into play when you start your activation engaged is the Free Closing move. As all enemy models in the dragon's CCWR were in B2B, a Dragon player could choose which one to Free Close too (Free Closing must be done against the closest engaged enemy). Here, we will choose to Free Close to be in the CCWR of just a single enemy model. Remember, there is no Free Slash while performing a Free Closing action.

So, how come that you have the right to make any move, while you are already in B2B, which means you are in your CCWR as well as the ennemy's, and the rule clearly says "If an Activated Model is Engaged due to an enemy Model’s CCWR, but the Activated Model is not in range of its own CCWR"

I know there has been a discussion about this on Facebook, but it's lost in the abysses. Can someone help me ? I feel like i'm missing something important in the game right now but can't understand it by myself :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:31 am 
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The example below the rule helps clear this up, "Free Closing can be performed even if Models are both in their CCWR."

If you are in CCWR of an enemy but not in your own CCWR then you Must use a free closing action. There is nothing stopping you from using one if you are in your CCWR and the enemies.

It is a rule of omission (which hopefully gets cleared up in 2.0)


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:35 am 
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The Dragon in that example is in the CCWR (BTB) of all four Mourning Wolves, so it is engaged by four models at exactly the same range. It can choose which one to FC to (as they are all the same distance), and can FC to anywhere in that model's CCWR. That means that it can unengage from the others, and FC into the CCWR of just the one.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:42 pm 
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Ok thank you for your help, i understand better what it was all suppose to mean.

Yet i have to disagree a bit:

Quote:
It is a rule of omission (which hopefully gets cleared up in 2.0)


How ? The rule itself quite clearly says:
Quote:
If an Activated Model is Engaged due to an enemy Model’s CCWR, but the Activated Model is not in range of its own CCWR, then the Activated Model must perform a ‘Free Closing’ Action to bring itself into CCWR.


So when i read this i understand: you HAVE to do a free closing IF you're NOT in your own CCWR. In regular English, it strongly seems to me that it means if you do are in your own CCWR with anything, you don't have to free close, and so there is no reason at all to do any free closing.

Described as it is, the free closing is something that you are forced to do, not choose to do (even if you can then choose how you do it when you are forced to do it).

Quote:
The example below the rule helps clear this up, "Free Closing can be performed even if Models are both in their CCWR."


Considering all this, this example sounds more like a huge typo to me. I find hard to admit that an example contains such an important part of a rule, that is not explained in the rule itself.

Do you understand my point ? Am i totally wrong because of not understanding something in the text (i'm not naturally english-speaking) ?

And more importantly, do you feel it wrong when you play with it, or does it bring fun and more dynamic feeling to your games ? I'm a bit confused by finding this out only now after playing the game since its launch.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:56 am 
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I agree that reading the rules doesn't seem to support free closing if you're already within CCWR. However, it has been confirmed by various members of Prodos that this is correct. Mich Cie confirmed directly with Jarek in person that it was correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:44 am 
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Charles Retro Z wrote:
So when i read this i understand: you HAVE to do a free closing IF you're NOT in your own CCWR. In regular English, it strongly seems to me that it means if you do are in your own CCWR with anything, you don't have to free close, and so there is no reason at all to do any free closing.

Described as it is, free closing is something that you are forced to do, not choose to do (even if you can then choose how you do it when you are forced to do it).


I absolutely agree, the rule reads as if you only get a free closing action if you are forced to do it. The implication is that you cannot do free close when you aren't forced to do free close, which is incorrect. This is why I say it is a rule by omission (that you can free close even if in your own CCWR). The rule doesn't say you can't, but it (falsely) implies that you can't.
For the sake of clarity I'd like to see it change to see to say that models can make a free close, and here are the circumstances where you must do it. Honestly I'd reather see the rules change a bit more so that starting engaged doesn't drop you to 1 AP. That way you just spend an AP to move into CCWR.

Charles Retro Z wrote:
Considering all this, this example sounds more like a huge typo to me. I find hard to admit that an example contains such an important part of a rule, that is not explained in the rule itself.


Whilst that could be true, the actual rule doesn't forbid free closing when you aren't forced to, but the rule only describes situations when you are forced to. The example is perfectly within the bounds of the rules once you realise that the rules don't stop it from being a voluntary action.
Also warzone has a bit of a history of having more rules in the rule examples than the actual rules (especially in UWZ)

Charles Retro Z wrote:
Do you understand my point ? Am i totally wrong because of not understanding something in the text (i'm not naturally english-speaking) ?

And more importantly, do you feel it wrong when you play with it, or does it bring fun and more dynamic feeling to your games ? I'm a bit confused by finding this out only now after playing the game since its launch.


I get your point, it took me a few read throughs to be clear on the example and how it worked. Honestly I haven't really made any use of it, other than to get models out of my own rear facing (you only have to stay in the opponent's same facing). I doubt I would use it in a similar way that Mich Cie did, but more from laziness than because I think it is a bit unfair (to be fair I am less competitive than the average sock)


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:56 pm 
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If we talk about Kunshu Dragonriders' tactics article then I wrote it.

Free closing was clarified by Jarek on fb and face to face at Expo. The rule basically allows to move within your opponents' CCRW. You can not leave his CCRW as it is disengagement and requires Move Action. If you have longer ccrw than your opponent and you are not in his ccrw You can still FC within facing You are engaged and Your CCRW range.

This rule allows basically two things.

1 - to get close enough to fight when You are engaged but not within Your CCRW or

2 - make a "dance" in ccrw. To free space for more engaging models, to leave one model unengaged (to shoot him) etc.

All above are limited to closest opponent's CCRW, facing etc. You can not for example get behind a model You are engaged with. Free Closing does not allows it.

Rules: they describe a situation when You are out of reach and You are engaged (begging of FC section). In example below the section You can find a sentence that allows models to FC when engaged. Little hidden but it is there.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:57 pm 
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This would be better described in 2.0. Latest army list clarifications and changed were written in very clear way and no "grey areas" were found so 2.0 should clarify this no problem.

P.S.

If You use FB please read the discussion under CTC link. I posted a direct link to Jarek's post about FB with his hand drawings describing tactical usage of that rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:08 am 
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Thank you Misio. I was indeed talking about your article.

I had read the discussion on FB about the CTC article, but i wanted to have a more "stable" place to get some clarifications that would remain easy to find and read again, which FB is definitely not.

I've played more with CC since, and it is true this rule is good for the dynamics of the game, only the wording was poor. Since we mostly played with basic CC situations (when any), we did not understand the why and the how. That's now a problem solved, thank you.

Played again in the beginning of the week and still love the game. Battle report incoming by the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Free Closing action
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:56 am 
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FC have such a tactical depth. I have used the dragon FC tactic last tournament to burn a free marine and 3 K9 I was engaged with. I love FC when deploying Shadow Walkers or Tiger Dragon in RD. Deployment in cc sometimes allows me to free close into ccrw with a vital target I was unable to get deploying.


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