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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:32 am 
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ok so while doing research for another topic i posted in i noticed that a lot of vehicles have a WP of "-" which implies "Null" or "no value" so if i use a "Shooting Psychic Power" to target these vehicles how they save against it since "If a model receives a Wound Effect from a Shooting Psychic Power it must use its WP value for its Armour Test" if their WP is non existent then they can save no matter what they roll since any value is higher than "Null" or "no value"

i seriously doubt that this was intended but currently it appears to be how it works


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:17 am 
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The rulebook now has definitions in it for 'dash' stat values. A 'Dash' value is always passed, when the required stat value is required.

i.e. if a Vehicle has (WP: -), it will automatically pass the required WP test.

What this means is that most Psychic Powers will have no effect on vehicles for the most part.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:21 am 
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Xaxius wrote:
ok so while doing research for another topic i posted in i noticed that a lot of vehicles have a WP of "-" which implies "Null" or "no value" so if i use a "Shooting Psychic Power" to target these vehicles how they save against it since "If a model receives a Wound Effect from a Shooting Psychic Power it must use its WP value for its Armour Test" if their WP is non existent then they can save no matter what they roll since any value is higher than "Null" or "no value"

i seriously doubt that this was intended but currently it appears to be how it works



rob_alderman wrote:
The rulebook now has definitions in it for 'dash' stat values. A 'Dash' value is always passed, when the required stat value is required.

i.e. if a Vehicle has (WP: -), it will automatically pass the required WP test.

What this means is that most Psychic Powers will have no effect on vehicles for the most part.


Xaxius: Vehicles don't get "Wound effects" they take "structure point" damage. Thus, you roll the AVV against the Vehicles AV. There is no conflict in the rules here.

That does mean that attacks which doesn't cause Structure Point damage (deboofs) will not work against vehicles, which is as it should be.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:24 am 
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Aha! very good point.

Yep, there is a clearer line between Armour (A), Armoured Value (AV) and Anti-Vehicle Value (AVV).

If a Psychic Power has no AVV, it cannot be used against Vehicles.

Equally, many in game effects never listed an AVV, this has also been edited.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Kollar wrote:
Xaxius wrote:
ok so while doing research for another topic i posted in i noticed that a lot of vehicles have a WP of "-" which implies "Null" or "no value" so if i use a "Shooting Psychic Power" to target these vehicles how they save against it since "If a model receives a Wound Effect from a Shooting Psychic Power it must use its WP value for its Armour Test" if their WP is non existent then they can save no matter what they roll since any value is higher than "Null" or "no value"

i seriously doubt that this was intended but currently it appears to be how it works



rob_alderman wrote:
The rulebook now has definitions in it for 'dash' stat values. A 'Dash' value is always passed, when the required stat value is required.

i.e. if a Vehicle has (WP: -), it will automatically pass the required WP test.

What this means is that most Psychic Powers will have no effect on vehicles for the most part.


Xaxius: Vehicles don't get "Wound effects" they take "structure point" damage. Thus, you roll the AVV against the Vehicles AV. There is no conflict in the rules here.

That does mean that attacks which doesn't cause Structure Point damage (deboofs) will not work against vehicles, which is as it should be.


that's not how things work as printed in the pdf...

WZR rules pdf page 39 under shooting section
"...Take a RS skill test by rolling a D20. If the RS test is passed, a Wound Effect is applied on the targeted Model, the Model which has suffered a Wound Effect must take an Armour(A) test..."

WZR rules pdf page 65 under "shooting at vehicles" section
When shooting at a Vehicle, follow the normal shooting rules described in shooting section.
Once a vehicle is hit, roll a D20 and check on the vehicle’s stat-card to determine which part of the vehicle is hit.
Saves are made as normal, but Weapon Strength does not affect the AV of vehicle. Only the AVV of the attacking weapon is used...
Vehicles can reroll an unsuccessful AV test if the AVV of the weapon in equal to 0. If the AV roll is failed, one Structure point is removed from section of the Vehicle that received the hit."

it dosent say that vehicles don't suffer wound effects when shot it actually says that they do suffer wound effects (by referring to the shooting rules) but that a failed test results in the removal of a structure point instead of a wound. so as printed vehicles do suffer wound effects.

now it could be argued that since the vehicle rules state "When shooting at a Vehicle, follow the normal shooting rules described in shooting section." that this would apply to psychic shooting as well except then the psychic shooting attack would use RS to hit. but that seems off too.

and what about vehicles that do have WP would they only effected by attacks that have an AVV? they have the stat to defend against the psychic attack as normal can I not chose?

oh and deboofs as worded can effect vehicles because the only test made during their use is the WP test to use the ability so that statement you made about them not effecting vehicles due to their "WP: -" is false

I have more I want to say on this subject but currently do not have the time (I must go to work) however I understand the intention of the rules but as worded (in the pdf) they don't work that way and want to help fix it so they they do actually work as intended


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Quote:
I have more I want to say on this subject but currently do not have the time (I must go to work) however I understand the intention of the rules but as worded (in the pdf) they don't work that way and want to help fix it so they they do actually work as intended


Well, that is your interpretation of the rules. I interpret that when it says;

"When shooting at a Vehicle, follow the normal shooting rules described in shooting section.
Once a vehicle is hit, roll a D20 and check on the vehicle’s stat-card to determine which part of the vehicle is hit.
Saves are made as normal, but Weapon Strength does not affect the AV of vehicle. Only the AVV of the attacking weapon is used...
Vehicles can reroll an unsuccessful AV test if the AVV of the weapon in equal to 0. If the AV roll is failed, one Structure point is removed from section of the Vehicle that received the hit."

You follow the rules for shooting (as usual) up until the vehicle is hit, after this the Vehicle Damage Rules comes into effect. This due to Once a vehicle is hit,. This reads that everything past the vehicle hit is an exception (or rather, "follow these rules instead") to the normal shooting rules. It also says that "Weapon Strength does not affect the AV of the Vehicle", you need weapon strength to cause Wound Effects. The same then of course occurs with a psychic attack. The only way you could possibly interpret this in any other way is if you are intentionally trying to misinterpret the rules.

Right about the deboofs though of course. Was just using it as an example.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:53 am 
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I see what you are trying to say the problem is is isn't clear and no I wasn't trying to deliberately misinterpret the rules I was reading them as I saw them your interpretation seemed to have slipped by me but I can see it now.

however im still not sure that it works as you say especially since nowhere in the rules does it say that a wound effect isn't applied, as a matter of fact, else where it is implied that they do suffer wound effects otherwise vehicles are immune to flamers which cause an "Automatic wound effect" to be applied. in addition the continued text for shooting vehicles says "Saves are made as normal" and the normal saves for a Phycic shooting attack are based off of the targets WP which based off of the ruling it automatically passes because it has "WP: -"
honestly I think that all that is required to clear the whole thing up is to make a "Psychic Shooting vs. Vehicles" section that clarifies that if a vehicle has "WP:-" then the shot is treated as a normal shooting attack targeting AV
(I only say it the way I do because some vehicles DO have WP and I was wondering if they can have their WP targeted instead of the AVV, I mean that seems logical to me anyway)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:54 pm 
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In the rulebook it says "‘Dash Values’ – If any Value in the Stats of a Model or weapon has a ‘-‘ Value, it means that it cannot be used. Models that are forced to make a Skill test with a ‘-‘ Value always pass the Skill test." Note here that it says Skill test and not Armour test. Most models use WP for armour tests, except vehicles which use AV vs psychic attacks.
So I assume it means that psychic ranged attacks are treated as normal ranged attacks vs vehicles (including the reroll for attacks with AVV 0).
Now if a vehicle would cast a psychic power THEN there will be trouble, because it means that a vehicle that makes a skill test to cast a power with a dash value in WP is auto-successful (better than Cardinal Dominic!). Thankfully this is not the case because as you see all Brotherhood & Mishima models have WP values (including the vehicles) and Legion powers are restricted (so far) to the Warlords.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:51 pm 
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An armour test is a skill test. Any test against a statline is considered a skill test.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:26 pm 
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Thanks for the clarification Rob!

So let me get this straight. Let's say that I target a vehicle which has WP:- (e.g. Grizzly Tank)

-If I hit it with a Psychic Shooting Power or Debuff that only requires a WP test on my part and deals SP damage, the vehicle uses its AV against the Psychic Power’s AVV.(e.g. The Cardinal’s Crimson Admonition(S), Vermillion Banner(D)).

-If I hit it with a Psychic Shooting Power or Debuff that ALSO requires a WP test from the vehicle (regardless of whether dealing SP damage or not), the vehicle uses its WP. If the WP has a Dash value, it auto-succeeds (e.g. Empathic Heart(D), Spatial Warp Rift(D)). Note here that if a WP test is needed, it is always in the relevant power's description.

The way I see it, the majority of the powers only require a WP test from the caster. That way vehicles with WP:- may be a little more resilient, but not gamebreakingly tough. A player that wants to bring them down with Psychic powers, will be able to do it. Just not with every single power available.


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