It is currently Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:24 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:19 pm
Posts: 60
TheDungen wrote:
Sure it was implausible, there are several very implausible elements, but the idea that a totally digital society who suffered a massive datavirus and had to get rid of all microprocessors and thus were stuck with perfecting an earlier technological tier isn't all that bad. The idea that chemicals can be used to create supermen is however much more ridiculous. I'm sorry but if you call it magic I shall suspend my disbelief but if you name it after a real life field of science I expect it to behave somewhat like that field.


Actually the idea of chemicals being used to create supermen is more believable than a virus corrupting microprocessors. There's simply 0% chance that that is even remotely possible, and can only be justified by the magic excuse, so Chemimen are really no less believable - at least we can augment the human body's natural capabilities with drugs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 253
ergotoxin wrote:
TheDungen wrote:

Regarding Cybertronic as a faction, I think it's counterproductive to make the faction "rational". All it's swag stems from the dark fascination with mind control, technology and collectivism. I kinda dig my brain-washed Chasseurs, don't you? What I'm saying is that Warzone is totally based on techno-horror atmosphere mixed with splatter, not too different from Warhammer's "grimdark", which actually inspired many of its elements back in the days. Borgs are dark and cool. Data isn't.


I have to agree with TheDungen here. I dislike the whole "completely brainwashed" side to Cybertronic that was introduced with Ultimate Warzone (or was it 2nd edition?). Cybertronic before that had way more character, way more personality. I don't think it was either Borg or Data. The problem with Borg style is that we get yet another "hive mind" type of army, and that one has been done to death. Cybertronic was their own faction back in 1st edition. Sure, they would kidnap people, revive corpses, use drugs to influence how much free will you had, but they were never "brain-washed" in the sense of the borg. They where enhanced (and in som way, lessened) human beings. In fact, I would much more say that Cybertronic back in 1st edition was the kind of society that is shown in Equilibrium ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/ ), only with the addition of AI. Numbed from feeling, highly efficient, yet flawed. Cybertronic combated the negatives of this setting by allowing their high ranking personal a lot more freedom (they had a different version of XLR8) which meant they could improvise more. I absolutely -loved- how they were presented. If you haven't watched Equilibrium, do it, and then see if you don't think that fits Cybertronics theme.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 59
Kollar wrote:
I have to agree with TheDungen here. I dislike the whole "completely brainwashed" side to Cybertronic that was introduced with Ultimate Warzone (or was it 2nd edition?). Cybertronic before that had way more character, way more personality. I don't think it was either Borg or Data. The problem with Borg style is that we get yet another "hive mind" type of army, and that one has been done to death. Cybertronic was their own faction back in 1st edition. Sure, they would kidnap people, revive corpses, use drugs to influence how much free will you had, but they were never "brain-washed" in the sense of the borg. They where enhanced (and in som way, lessened) human beings. In fact, I would much more say that Cybertronic back in 1st edition was the kind of society that is shown in Equilibrium ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/ ), only with the addition of AI. Numbed from feeling, highly efficient, yet flawed. Cybertronic combated the negatives of this setting by allowing their high ranking personal a lot more freedom (they had a different version of XLR8) which meant they could improvise more. I absolutely -loved- how they were presented. If you haven't watched Equilibrium, do it, and then see if you don't think that fits Cybertronics theme.


To be honest I never even cared about Ultimate Warzone; don't really know what fluff changes it had (except seeing the infamous "People's Volunteers" mentioned in discussions). Perhaps you guys are thinking I'm defending 2nd edition / Ultimate here but I'm really not. I am a fan of the first edition fluff as well, but to be honest I see many nods to brainwashing, cultist practices and cloning in it already; it's certainly a dystopic society with plenty of dark secrets in its closet, it is very "cyberpunk" indeed.

By the way, I like Equilibrium and I'm pretty ok with comparing it with Cybertronic. I'm just not ok with sticking popular labels such as "postcyberpunk" to everything just because it's the cool term of the day. :P


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 253
ergotoxin wrote:

To be honest I never even cared about Ultimate Warzone; don't really know what fluff changes it had (except seeing the infamous "People's Volunteers" mentioned in discussions). Perhaps you guys are thinking I'm defending 2nd edition / Ultimate here but I'm really not. I am a fan of the first edition fluff as well, but to be honest I see many nods to brainwashing, cultist practices and cloning in it already; it's certainly a dystopic society with plenty of dark secrets in its closet, it is very "cyberpunk" indeed.

By the way, I like Equilibrium and I'm pretty ok with comparing it with Cybertronic. I'm just not ok with sticking popular labels such as "postcyberpunk" to everything just because it's the cool term of the day. :P


I agree with you about the labeling of things unneccesarily (sp?), and it seems we somewhat agree about the Cybertronic style as well. I just don't like the way of thinking that most members of Cybertronic are "drones" (aka Borg in ST, Servitors in WH40K), just that they are more like individuals strapped of initiative and feelings they don't need for the most part, but at least the illusion of free will.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 59
I regret using the Borg vs. Data metaphore... It isn't a good one. What I imagine under brainwashing in Cybertronic is more like Scientology-style brainwashing (or the media image of it), not a Hive Mind. I like all the messages about sudden changes of loyalty and infiltrators disappearing and the theories such as possible Dark Symmetry influence, or even Cybertronic altering its employees with chems (aka Equilibrium style). It all helps create a mysterious, dystopic, even sinister atmosphere about the faction.

By the way, I think chemicals or biochemicals are mentioned many times in Cybertronic fluff, not only in Chemimen - but also as possible explanation of Cybertronic influence over people (see above) and in other technologies, eg. the Ticker. It's sort of a staple for the corporation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Sweden
That's different that's drugs and yes I know drugs are chemicals but drugs you have to keep taking for them to affect you. While genetic engineering and nanotechnology are permanent changes to a beings physiology. Which makes them more controversial because you are entering into the idea of permanently leaving your humanity behind.

Sure I can drop the label, I just discovered the trope a few months back and though, hey that sounds awesome. The Equilibrium comparison is a nice one, but again Equlibrium is a fairly romantic universe. They never stop to consider that the Tetragrammaton may actually have been right (If it weren't for the whole capital punishment deal I'd actually say that the Tetragrammaton is the good guy of the movie). The people on the drug there seems to fear emotion rather than see that they have transcended it (even if that is present overtly in that Preston can only use his gun-kata when he has no emotion). It's always if we feel then this may happen, it's never if we don't feel we can do all these cool things.

baran wrote:
TheDungen wrote:
Sure it was implausible, there are several very implausible elements, but the idea that a totally digital society who suffered a massive datavirus and had to get rid of all microprocessors and thus were stuck with perfecting an earlier technological tier isn't all that bad. The idea that chemicals can be used to create supermen is however much more ridiculous. I'm sorry but if you call it magic I shall suspend my disbelief but if you name it after a real life field of science I expect it to behave somewhat like that field.


Actually the idea of chemicals being used to create supermen is more believable than a virus corrupting microprocessors. There's simply 0% chance that that is even remotely possible, and can only be justified by the magic excuse, so Chemimen are really no less believable - at least we can augment the human body's natural capabilities with drugs.


It's not affecting the microprocessors it's affecting computers using microprocessors. Right me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain computer viruses came to be after the invention of microprocessors and magnetic harddrives.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:19 pm
Posts: 60
That's really the issue is that viruses target software bugs, which means that any virus is inherently linked to the piece of software it is targeting. It's the reason why a virus that targets an exploit in Windows is only useful against that version of that operating system and wouldn't affect any other desktop OS like Linux, any mobile device like a smartphone or a tablet, or any embedded device such as medical equipment.

Viruses can also only target certain types of device, the majority of microprocessor devices out there could never be targeted by a virus because of how they are locked down in terms of capabilities. It's why for example a virus could never target a non-smartphone, or the vast majority of embedded devices such as the previously mentioned medical equipment.

So you see the idea of a virus that targets every microprocessor based device is the same as magic, it simply could never happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Sweden
Unless there was some common frame of reference which they all used.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:56 pm
Posts: 59
Actually, there is quite a lot of drugs, chemicals and elements that make permanent physiological (or even genetical) changes, though these are usually for the worse. This is where suspension of disbelief comes - what if Cybertronic actually developed some that bring positive changes? Not so unbelievable and consistent with fluff.

Regarding magic, let's not forget that one of the theories about Cybertronic is that it is affected by a new pattern of Dark symmetry. So actually there can be some otherworldly influence.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Sweden
Damage is easy to cause, chemistry is a blunt object not a scalpel however. Sure when we do genetic engineering we use a lot of chemicals (remember anything made up of atoms is a chemical) but that's not chemistry that's bioengineering. It's hard to draw any firm line between the sciences, but chemistry is usually used for the non organic chemistry.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron



Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
skymiles_red v1.0.1 designed by Team -Programming forum-سيارات للبيع .