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Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial things.
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Author:  skitter [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial things.

In essence I would like to ask other Imperial players for help. I'm still learnign this game and (a lot of) help would be appreciated.

First of all I would like to adress this little item that has me a bit annoyed. Hand Rippers. Their basic profile is so utterly lackluster I'm wondering why they count as a weapon. Yes, their secondary profile actually adds STR and AVV, and yes, the whole thing gives (10) armour in melee, but I can't help wondering why bother? Wolfbanes are better off with their swords and ISF can't hurt a fly in melee unless the're taken with a CC warlord (nvm the fact that cc Blood Berets are still way better).

I'm likely biased here. My last few games have been vs Mishima, and the fact that Hatamoto and Tiger Dragons have a tendancy to eat me alive has me wondering who wrote "Imperial’s Defence Forces outnumber its Special Forces, but unlike the regulars of many corporations are generally considered the equal of the elites of other megacorps." in the Imperial fluff.

On a side note, I wish I could find a good use for the ISF. I love the models, and the rules are good, but it just seems to me that Special Forces should have somewhat better stats than the average Trencher. Maybe it's the 'less numerous' aspect of Imperial forces that the creators are trying to convey, but the fact that I tend to be outnumbered by troops who are my equal or better (and somehow cheaper) makes me want to rethink my army choice.

Right, better stop before I start rambling, any advice or words of comfort?

Author:  Bergqvist [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

Some thoughts about ISF and hand rippers:
You can teleport in behind your enemies. You don't get the engage bonus that way, but attacking from behind gives +4 CC to all attacks. A large part of ISF's value seems to be the teleport. They aren't slowed down by anything and have an easier time than most at picking their fights. ISF are jacks-of-all-trades whereas most Mishima soldiers are usually all about close combat. To make ISF good at close combat, you have to invest in it, just like Mishima soldiers have. Also note that Tiger Dragons and Blood Berets are support troops while ISF are troop... umm, troops (at least if you use a MoW warlord). Support troops are supposed to be far better than what is basically a common foot soldier with more toys than anyone else.

Take the Furious Combatants specialization and your ISF hit on CC 19 (if striking from behind), St 11 and RoA 3. Couple that with the Defense of the Light medal and your IA 10 should jump up to IA 13 pretty fast. Open up with a blast from a gehenna puker before teleporting into close combat.

Author:  skitter [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

Well, the back strikes are fine if you want to hit something, but they really don't help with the killing part (aside from Active: Back Stab). Really, the point I'm trying to make is that Hand Rippers just don't make sense to me.

All this talk about elite and special forces kinda falls flat, because right now ISF feel like glorified Trenchers. Another problem I'm trying to deal with is that these guys CAN be quite good with the right specializations, but the cost skyrockets, and that's even before you buy any extra weapons. And, as troops, high point costs isn't something you want to do. And trust me, with access to 'path of lava' on every squad commander, Mishima forces can get real shooty real fast. Yes, the power usage is lost with the squad commander, but at 24 inches range and guarded these powers can stay in play for quite a while.

I mean, am i wrong here? Am I just complaining for no reason? If so, please give me some tips. I like this game, despite most of my battles ending with me taking my teeth home in a bag.

Author:  ADG_Wraith [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

I found that the combination of factors meant my first few games were all losses. Don't worry, it's all good once you get past that first few.

Author:  skitter [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

Yeah, I know, I know, learning curves are always steep for me. Honestly, with Rapid Deployment being my main pain in the back, I find myself wising Hurricane walkers could be capable of sentry actions.

Still dosen't bring me any closer to understanding Hand Rippers.

Author:  Vineheart01 [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

Im finding that a lot of the rules for this game in general, not just imperials, are kinda sneakily written. Ive played somewhere around 20 games and usually between each game i discover something i didnt notice before and i facepalm so hard because that dramatically changes how i play. Usually in the "Oh, i cant do that....crap" department but its often the other way around too.

Just because theyre hitting at Str11 doesnt mean its bad. Its 3 attacks that are basically guarantees and potential powershots. While this game isnt as bad as 40k with the "make him roll his saves!" motto, its still relevant. Often against Bauhaus its my Trenchers that kill the Juggernauts, not my Lions/Greyhounds/Ghosts just because of weight of fire.

On the topic of ISF, im also finding it hard to bring them not because i find them useless but because i dont see their advantage over Trenchers. They can do some shady things Trenchers cannot, yes, but they cost an arm and a leg to do it. Two special guns, one additional ISF rule, and 1-2 Medals can easily skyrocket 10 ISF's to near 250pts if not more depending on the toys you brought. Thats just insane.

Dont let a losing streak discourage you though. I think i lost somewhere around 50 games of Warhammer 40k before i started winning reliably lol. Dice combat games are hard to get used to.

Author:  skitter [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

Yeah, I agree, forgetting some rules untill after the game is a LOOOOT of fun. On the other side, telling my opponent that the Mechas charge might boost its melee STR to 20, but that does squat against my Hurricane. But, one question, where are you getting the 3 attacks? base hand ripper profile is +1 st, RoA 2, I assume you're buring a card? Or using CC warlord spec?

And I do agree with your assesment of the ISF: The're just not really, really worth taking over Trenchers. Yes, they can be much better, but the cost for that simply isnt worth it. So far the best I could do with them is ranger spec + IR goggles. Other than that, trenchers with their free HMG are kinda making ISF redundant, which is making me sad.

P.S. Last time I played 40k I decided to throw fair play out the window and took two thunderwolf riding wolf lords. Seeing a charging squad of 10 death company bouncing off one before the other guy ha da chance to attack (hammer) was just silly. And funny. Well, for me.

Author:  ADG_Wraith [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

ISF is the same cost as a squad of Trenchers. For that price you're only really losing the 'The Trenchers' special rule and the Charger, and instead gaining Hand Rippers, +1LD and +1A, along with a variable bonus to stats according to your WL type. Then there's their teleport movement.

IA(10) is a good thing in CC, especially against any sort of high-strength CC opponent (Valks, most of Mishima, Wolfbanes, etc). This is especially so against a CC character or monster, where you can use them to tarpit and surround the target to get some of those rear attacks.
As Vineheart pointed out, higher ROA is a great thing as weight of attacks is superior in most cases to a single high-strength attack (similar to real life). Each dice you roll is a potential power shot, or else an attack to allocate to a second target if you kill your first. They can also be turned into a decent AVV weapon for TTB1.

The ability to customise ISF is where you can really make a unit that capitalises on your playstyle, as well as letting players delve into the fluff for their basic forces. You can make a great guard squad with a Tech WL, Medic, Guard and Heat Resistant barrels. They have A15, Medic (4) and double their range to guard a model. That means you're taking hits on A15, and as long as they're within 4" of the squad commander they add Heal (4). They can suppress advancing enemy squads and still go on sentry to react to enemy Rapid Deployment. That's all for the cost of only five points more than a squad of five trenchers with NCO.

Author:  skitter [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

That would cost 115 for a squad of 5 models, or 19 points per model + 20 for medic, way too much for troops. The meta aroud my area tends towards a selection of cheep troops and 2 or 3 squads that wipe the floor with the opponents army (i.e. me). It would also bring their price closer to Heavy Infantry and Armoured Chasseurs. Who just get more, nvm the Hatamoto.

Look, I respect your opinion, I do. But so far ISF seem like a poor investement. One squad I can bring along for the utility (pref IR Goggles), but their base stats vs cost just don't seem worth it. Maybe if they had a little extra in the terms of stats, or were free to choose their spec regardless of their warlord. I repeat, to me they seem like glorified Trenchers without the HMG. Or special actions from their Invader.

I'm not saying I want overpowered troops that will make everything else redundant, but I think the ISF are just a bit lackluster. Sadly, sheer killing power tends to win vs utility.

EDIT: Ok, so it dawned on me that I forgot one detail: The games played by the WZ players in my area range between 500-750. In that context, ISF tend to be too expensive, but might play differently when I actually have some points to spend on their goodies. So, if you're just wondering what on Earth I was babbling about, there you go.

P.S. I still don't like Hand Rippers.

Author:  ADG_Wraith [ Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sell me on Hand Rippers. And a lot of other Imperial thi

Fair enough. One thing that really matters in this game is local meta. As there are so many options between lists, upgrades and cards for all factions, your ability to win will depend on what you're facing. Can you give us an idea of what your opponents play with and what sort of tables you play on?

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