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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 7:24 pm 
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I quote directly from the rulebook.

"They wear ultra light-weight body armour that greatly increases their mobility"

And lighteater it all comes down to what those armours are made of. But those still looks more like the description than the concept prodos made, but hey, I'll just go for the Ronin instead of Hatamoto a shame I had high hopes for them. Its a little strange that outlaws look more dignified than the royal guard but hey...


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Mh, to me the old fluff and olf models contradict each other to some degree. How should this kind of armor increase mobility?
And if there would be a way, the same way should work for the power armor concept.

However, I think that Prodos' interpretations so far are quite convincing, 100% old fluff or not. And elites in super armor seems legit. :)


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Well for the first time since MC evovled I find myself willing to purchase the figures for Mishima. I loved the art but for many of the old figures I was let down, they seemed short and flat allthough they painted, well. The fluid nature didn`t come through to me so most of mine were converted from other manufactures.
Cheers all.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:05 am 
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Hatamoto models and hatamoto art by Bonner were heavy troops. The power armor explains mobility improvement. I personally love the concept


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:55 am 
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The Hatamoto's description always ran counter to its actual stats and art depiction. It was always show wearing a huge, bulky suit of armour (far more than Samurai) which would lead one to believe it was wearing a Mishiman powersuit (which was the standard armour of elite Samurai, only poor Samurai and Ronin wear the lighter battlesuits). But the background for the Hatamoto does list it with a lightweight set of armour (even though it has heavier armour than the Samurai in the same list).

This is kind of like the issue with Dragoons over in the Bauhaus list in that Mishima saw a lot of units re-imagined (as well as some faction concepts) between the publishing of the Mutant Chronicles sourcebook for them and 1st Edition Warzone. In Mutant Chronicles they are big on robotics, power armour and are fairly high tech (though their low-end troops like the Ashigaru are less well-equipped). But when the war game rolled around they seemed to lose some of that. Warheads went from being non-anthropomorphic robots (they were basically modern-day UAVs and smart missiles) and they seemed to lose the power armour focus (at least in terms of background). So I can't say that I am not unhappy to see the powersuit make a return to their arsenal outside of Tiger-Dragons.

Now I kind of want to see them do proper Shoa Ace Custom battlesuits (maybe a 3-man squad because they are fairly big). Bringing back a bit of that high-tech Mutant Chronicles feel to them will be nice and help make the classes of trooper seem more stratified. Ashigaru get handed light armour and a cheap gun and are sent to die in droves, Ronin and poorer Samurai save up just to get a proper un-powered battlesuit, the rich and elite get to wade in to combat with a full powersuit and heirloom weaponry. It will make for a very striking look on the battlefield.

I just hope they allow non-Ronin Samurai to use guns this time around because non-ranged Samurai always seemed weird to me.

Can't wait to see more concepts/renders of the Hatamoto, I'm interested in seeing what helmets and face masks look like. That will really set these designs off.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Actually, Durandal's comments got me thinking about Powered Armour for Mishima. If we go the way it seems to be, maybe the Hatamoto and Tiger Dragons will both have powered suits, but with a range preference (Hatamoto standard range/Tiger Dragon's close-short range). Never fielded Hatamoto or Bushido Samuria in my forces, as didn't see the Hatamoto as useful and the Idea of modern troopers without ranged weapons was silly. Lots of Ronin, Pheonix Samuria and Mecha was my usual mix.

And please keep the 'bullpup' style with the weapons, they did give the feel of a more hi-tech/close in weapon system.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Well maybe its just that I dont like power armour. either because the engineer in me says that being big and bulky is always to great a disadvantage to counteract with armour, because its easier to build stuff that blows something up then keeps something from blowing up (because of the second rule of thermodynamics, the entropy rule) or because I simply prefer wargames to be about people not machines.

Or maybe I just dont like them looking like Honda from street fighter.

edit: oh and i feel a little sad that we're moving away from dieselpunk toward more generic sci-fi. I though that bringing WZ to the 21st century was about making it less than similar games (you know of what i speak) not more so. And dont give me the whole because of cybertronic they can make electronics again thing because if we do that then they can make guided missiles and stuff like power armour suddenly becomes totally obsolete (at least as long as it slows you down, makes you a larger target or emitts heat).
And yes I know that several countries' militaries are working on powered armour but those look nothing like that. What makes warzone great is that most of its is plausible.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:21 pm 
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TheDungen wrote:
Well maybe its just that I dont like power armour. either because the engineer in me says that being big and bulky is always to great a disadvantage to counteract with armour, because its easier to build stuff that blows something up then keeps something from blowing up (because of the second rule of thermodynamics, the entropy rule) or because I simply prefer wargames to be about people not machines.


To each their own, I tend to love power armour in games and I liked that focus back in Mutant Chronicles. Either way Mishima is one of those armies that used to have a big focus on powered armour and battlesuits. Hell until the Orca and Vulcan came along Mishima was the only faction (circa Mutant Chronicles) with access to manned battlesuits and powered armour (as well as sharing in Cybertronics love for autonomous robots). So for some of us, it is kind of an important part of the faction that I, for one, am glad to see translating in to the line.

Quote:
Or maybe I just dont like them looking like Honda from street fighter.


You say that like it is a bad thing. :lol:

But I like that the power armour is bulky looking, it makes it seem more retro than if it were sleek like a suit of power armour from Infinity. Hell you can see the diesel exhausts along the side of the chest.

Quote:
edit: oh and i feel a little sad that we're moving away from dieselpunk toward more generic sci-fi. I though that bringing WZ to the 21st century was about making it less than similar games (you know of what i speak) not more so.


Dieselpunk is all about doing fantastical things with a retro level of technology. Like steampunk, it isn't about being really accurate to what one would expect to see during the 1920's to the 1950's. It is about having anachronistically high technology with the aesthetics of a bygone era. This has always been part of Mutant Chronicles/Warzone. That mix of low-tech looks with things that are beyond our capability. Power armour, mecha, tanks so large to be at the edge of what we would consider normal and useful and all kinds of other oddities (like man-portable gatling guns that can be fired by one guy without a tripod and a full crew). For other examples of Dieselpunk take a look at DUST (and AT-43 for some factions), Gearkrieg, Weird World War II and other alternate-history games. The way Warzone frames its dieselpunk with pulp fantasy/sci-fi is kind of similar in a lot of ways to how Warmachine/Hordes approaches the steampunk genre.

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And dont give me the whole because of cybertronic they can make electronics again thing because if we do that then they can make guided missiles and stuff like power armour suddenly becomes totally obsolete (at least as long as it slows you down, makes you a larger target or emitts heat).


Would now be a bad time to re-mention that Mishima had exactly that in Mutant Chronicles? Combat and Suicide varieties of Warheads were cigar-shape autonomous robots. Combat Warheads were basically UAV hunter-killers and Suicide Warheads were smart missiles. In the end most stuff in Warzone/Mutant Chronicles exists because it is cool. Power armour exists on the field because it can take a hit and keep moving despite what you think thermodynamics/entropy say. I mean, most big Dark Legion beasties violate cube-square law, but that doesn't seem to bug anyone. People firing the charge from the hip violates what we know about Newton's Third Law. Power armour may break your sense of verisimilitude but it manages to stay right in my sweet spot and I can suspend my disbelief all over that jazz. :P


Quote:
And yes I know that several countries' militaries are working on powered armour but those look nothing like that. What makes warzone great is that most of its is plausible.


To the first part: Most of what we have seen so far are just exo-skeletons with no armour layered on them. For the most part they are just glorified lifting aids right now. So it doesn't surprise me that they don't look a lot like sci-fi powersuits. But the powersuits we have seen give me a lovely 1950's/60's sci-fi feel (ala Starship Troopers) which is about right when talking about retro-looks for armour.

To the second part: What? Plausible? What?

Mutant Chronicles has never really been about plausible stuff. It has always been a game that cribbed over-the-top stuff from 90's comics. It is a game where the space inquisition fights interdimensional space zombies using LMGs with integrated chainsaw attachments. It is a game where soldiers with fists like hams and pauldrons a small family could live in duke it out with guns called the Gehenna Puker and Kampfkanone. It neither tries to be plausible nor does it take itself seriously for a single second. It embodies the best bits of media like 2000AD and runs with it.

Not to denigrate your opinion here or even pick on you (I apologize if you are feeling that way about my posts) but when someone uses "plausible" to refer to things in Mutant Chronicles/Warzone, I am going to need to know what their definition for such a thing is. Because in my mind, Mutant Chronicles/Warzone was never aiming to be plausible speculative fiction about a world that might come to pass. It was being a tongue-in-cheek parody of 90's action comics that tried not to take itself too seriously. In my mind MC/WZ and plausible are kind of opposed in the most glorious way possible.

But either way, not everyone will like the power armour thing and that is okay. But I am just mad for it, so buying in on Mishima and seeing them bring back that Mutant Chronicles feel is making me giddy about starting them up. Hopefully they will have troops that appeal to the both of us in equal measure. :D


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:55 am 
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Durandal wrote:
To the first part: Most of what we have seen so far are just exo-skeletons with no armour layered on them. For the most part they are just glorified lifting aids right now. So it doesn't surprise me that they don't look a lot like sci-fi powersuits. But the powersuits we have seen give me a lovely 1950's/60's sci-fi feel (ala Starship Troopers) which is about right when talking about retro-looks for armour.

That's because there's no market for power armour, the market is for allowing humans to run faster and carry heavier guns not make themselves bigger targets.
Sorry unless warefare changes very dramatically back to some sort of personal level, powerarmour isn't going to happen. Being in cover beats the hell out of any armour. Especially if it gives of heat.

Durandal wrote:
To the second part: What? Plausible? What?
Mutant Chronicles has never really been about plausible stuff. It has always been a game that cribbed over-the-top stuff from 90's comics. It is a game where the space inquisition fights interdimensional space zombies using LMGs with integrated chainsaw attachments. It is a game where soldiers with fists like hams and pauldrons a small family could live in duke it out with guns called the Gehenna Puker and Kampfkanone. It neither tries to be plausible nor does it take itself seriously for a single second. It embodies the best bits of media like 2000AD and runs with it.

With the exception of the legion (who may only be sufficiently advanced aliens) they don't do anything 'impossible' terra forming the solar system(ok the moon isn't ever going to be habitable for mass scale neither are nay of the smaller moons because of gravity) is possible and there are research going on on this subject, the planets are actually planet sized, which is like tears of joy stuff. The technology has gone forward but not beyond the point of believability, sure for non electronics its a bit to far but there's little stuff we couldn't do right now. (with the exception of spaceships).
All an all compared to other settings of the genre, MC is very plausible.

Durandal wrote:
Not to denigrate your opinion here or even pick on you (I apologize if you are feeling that way about my posts) but when someone uses "plausible" to refer to things in Mutant Chronicles/Warzone, I am going to need to know what their definition for such a thing is. Because in my mind, Mutant Chronicles/Warzone was never aiming to be plausible speculative fiction about a world that might come to pass. It was being a tongue-in-cheek parody of 90's action comics that tried not to take itself too seriously. In my mind MC/WZ and plausible are kind of opposed in the most glorious way possible.


Plausible for the genre, no one travels faster than light, no one time travels, there are no jedi, there are no space marines, there are no chaos gods (the apostles are actual physical beings). No crystal spires and togas. No laser weapons.

Durandal wrote:
But either way, not everyone will like the power armour thing and that is okay. But I am just mad for it, so buying in on Mishima and seeing them bring back that Mutant Chronicles feel is making me giddy about starting them up. Hopefully they will have troops that appeal to the both of us in equal measure. :D

If mishima used to be the power armour faction ten why are they adding it to to other factions, like capitol getting terminators and bauhaus getting the juggernaut?
And I dont mind power armour (for mishima I still mind in general) if its sleek, mishima was always about ki, martial arts and samurai blades for me.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Quote:
And I dont mind power armour (for mishima I still mind in general) if its sleek, mishima was always about ki, martial arts and samurai blades for me.


Highlighted for emphasis.

And therein lies the problem.. and one that we are all guilty of to a greater or lesser degree. We each took something away from our experience of the setting through Mutant Chronicles, Doomtrooper and previous iterations of Warzone and what defines a faction for one person may be totally irrelevant for another. That in itself is absolutely fine but it tends to skew our expectations of what Warzone Resurrection should be and I think that cane make us resistant to change. This is bad because if nothing else, we have to remember that this particular IP - as cool as it was - fell by the wayside. Forgetting the rules for a moment, if Prodos brought back the miniatures line exactly how it was just to appeal to us die hard fans it would fail again. It is a balancing act and if Mishima needs a major visual overhaul to extend it's appeal to new gamers, so be it.

The same goes for all the factions, really. I just think that with Bauhaus, Capitol and the Dark Legion, the old guard have been pretty lucky :)


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