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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:07 pm 
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TheDungen wrote:
That's because there's no market for power armour, the market is for allowing humans to run faster and carry heavier guns not make themselves bigger targets.
Sorry unless warefare changes very dramatically back to some sort of personal level, powerarmour isn't going to happen. Being in cover beats the hell out of any armour. Especially if it gives of heat.

that's debatable it would depend on the capabilities of the power armor, if you could build a suit of armor that would make a soldier impervious to standard anti infantry weapons and able to carry the firepower of a conventional fireteam without making them bigger than a hum-vee then im sure someone would be fielding it
TheDungen wrote:
With the exception of the legion (who may only be sufficiently advanced aliens) they don't do anything 'impossible' terra forming the solar system(ok the moon isn't ever going to be habitable for mass scale neither are nay of the smaller moons because of gravity) is possible and there are research going on on this subject, the planets are actually planet sized, which is like tears of joy stuff. The technology has gone forward but not beyond the point of believability, sure for non electronics its a bit to far but there's little stuff we couldn't do right now. (with the exception of spaceships).
All an all compared to other settings of the genre, MC is very plausible.

this a actually agree with

TheDungen wrote:
Plausible for the genre, no one travels faster than light, no one time travels, there are no jedi, there are no space marines, there are no chaos gods (the apostles are actual physical beings). No crystal spires and togas. No laser weapons.

the ones in orange aren't a 100% certainty or aren't entirely impossible the ones in red are actually not true

jedi exist although not in the form we see in the Star Wars movies, there are many people that follow the jedi code and teachings as their religion the religion is called jediism and the followers are called jedi so they technically do exist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism

as for laser weapons the united states plans on deploying at least one in the Persian Gulf by summer of next year
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04 ... eapon?lite

I do not know enough about the previous lore to really give an answer to you last comment except for the statement that I know the lore and even capabilities and army option have varied greatly between the previous versions of Mutant Chronicles and Warzone so what may have been the focus of Mishima in one version may not be in another it seems this is the root of most differences of opinion on the forums about the factions and what they should have/do


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Siygess wrote:
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And I dont mind power armour (for mishima I still mind in general) if its sleek, mishima was always about ki, martial arts and samurai blades for me.


Highlighted for emphasis.

And therein lies the problem.. and one that we are all guilty of to a greater or lesser degree. We each took something away from our experience of the setting through Mutant Chronicles, Doomtrooper and previous iterations of Warzone and what defines a faction for one person may be totally irrelevant for another. That in itself is absolutely fine but it tends to skew our expectations of what Warzone Resurrection should be and I think that cane make us resistant to change. This is bad because if nothing else, we have to remember that this particular IP - as cool as it was - fell by the wayside. Forgetting the rules for a moment, if Prodos brought back the miniatures line exactly how it was just to appeal to us die hard fans it would fail again. It is a balancing act and if Mishima needs a major visual overhaul to extend it's appeal to new gamers, so be it.

The same goes for all the factions, really. I just think that with Bauhaus, Capitol and the Dark Legion, the old guard have been pretty lucky :)


But if we make the assumption that the IP was a failure and everything should change why resurrect it at all? why not just start from scratch? Mishima is one of those factions I think that the world has grown into rather than out of. There are more people into japan and the jidai geki than ever before. And yet they chose to minimise that for building in the transformers direction which despite there being new movies out people kind of treat like a joke.

Xaxius wrote:
TheDungen wrote:
That's because there's no market for power armour, the market is for allowing humans to run faster and carry heavier guns not make themselves bigger targets.
Sorry unless warefare changes very dramatically back to some sort of personal level, powerarmour isn't going to happen. Being in cover beats the hell out of any armour. Especially if it gives of heat.

that's debatable it would depend on the capabilities of the power armor, if you could build a suit of armor that would make a soldier impervious to standard anti infantry weapons and able to carry the firepower of a conventional fireteam without making them bigger than a hum-vee then im sure someone would be fielding it
TheDungen wrote:
With the exception of the legion (who may only be sufficiently advanced aliens) they don't do anything 'impossible' terra forming the solar system(ok the moon isn't ever going to be habitable for mass scale neither are nay of the smaller moons because of gravity) is possible and there are research going on on this subject, the planets are actually planet sized, which is like tears of joy stuff. The technology has gone forward but not beyond the point of believability, sure for non electronics its a bit to far but there's little stuff we couldn't do right now. (with the exception of spaceships).
All an all compared to other settings of the genre, MC is very plausible.

this a actually agree with

TheDungen wrote:
Plausible for the genre, no one travels faster than light, no one time travels, there are no jedi, there are no space marines, there are no chaos gods (the apostles are actual physical beings). No crystal spires and togas. No laser weapons.

the ones in orange aren't a 100% certainty or aren't entirely impossible the ones in red are actually not true

jedi exist although not in the form we see in the Star Wars movies, there are many people that follow the jedi code and teachings as their religion the religion is called jediism and the followers are called jedi so they technically do exist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jediism

as for laser weapons the united states plans on deploying at least one in the Persian Gulf by summer of next year
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04 ... eapon?lite

I do not know enough about the previous lore to really give an answer to you last comment except for the statement that I know the lore and even capabilities and army option have varied greatly between the previous versions of Mutant Chronicles and Warzone so what may have been the focus of Mishima in one version may not be in another it seems this is the root of most differences of opinion on the forums about the factions and what they should have/do


Yeah but nothing can be proven to be impossible so you may just start to paint every word ever printed orange. And I'd love to butcher every sci-fi idea not made by Asimov or Claarke here but seeing as this thread isn't about that I wont.But hey why dont you go to the nearest university and have them tell you why sci-fi isn't real for me. The point was that Mutant chronicles wasn't as bad an offender as many other sci-fi's out there.

On jediism and the chaos gods however consider Tim Minchin


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Quote:
But if we make the assumption that the IP was a failure and everything should change why resurrect it at all? why not just start from scratch?


Indeed. But you know what they say about making assumptions.. and the perils of reductio ad absurdum. Clearly they aren't about to turn into sports cars.

Relaunching an IP has a lot of benefits. For one, there is the established setting and lore which saves Prodos a lot of time and money. Another is that any established IP comes with a group of disparate fans across the globe and their involvement means Prodos gets to kickstart (heh) the growth of a community around their product, as well as the early sales. So we already have a basis for not scrapping it all and starting again and clearly this is not what Prodos are doing. But like I said, it's a balancing act and they have to analyse the weaknesses of the previous edition of Warzone.. both in terms of the minis and the rules.. and address them though changes that are unique to their own vision, with a view to appealing to a wider audience than the previous games did in their heyday.

Visually, Mishima is simply the best example of this and what we are seeing from the concept art is a reduced emphasis on historically-influenced gear* and a greater emphasis on advanced power armour which looks to better than anything else worn by the other factions (Cybertronic doesn't count. On an infantry level, it's all about cybernetics and sub-dermal plating. I don't see them passing on their armoured implants to their progeny). We don't know if their ethos as a faction has changed - and I strongly suspect it hasn't - but if you add a Kabuto and a pair of Sashimono to the art I see a unit I would consider buying if I didn't know anything about Warzone and I saw it on a store shelf. I would instantly 'get' what Mishima was about. The same is already true of the other factions.

* I always thought the original Mishima models were goofy to be honest!


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:43 am 
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reductio ad absurdum is actually a pretty useful tool when extrapolating data.But its just a tool. I can agree there are things that need to change, but I'd prefer if these changes came in the form of new units rather than over-re-imaginings of old ones.

Also goofy like having the highlander storming a citadel with his claymore? That's what makes it warzone if you ask me.
And again I'm not saying they shouldnt not take it in new directions i jsut think it would be a shame if they didnt preserve the option to go in the old directions.
So sure make sumowrestlers in powerarmour but dont overwrite the awesome bonner style hatamoto with them. These guys are supposed to be bodyguard kind of hard when they wont fit through a door.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 4:55 am 
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TheDungen wrote:
reductio ad absurdum is actually a pretty useful tool when extrapolating data.But its just a tool. I can agree there are things that need to change, but I'd prefer if these changes came in the form of new units rather than over-re-imaginings of old ones.

Also goofy like having the highlander storming a citadel with his claymore? That's what makes it warzone if you ask me.
And again I'm not saying they shouldnt not take it in new directions i jsut think it would be a shame if they didnt preserve the option to go in the old directions.
So sure make sumowrestlers in powerarmour but dont overwrite the awesome bonner style hatamoto with them. These guys are supposed to be bodyguard kind of hard when they wont fit through a door.

who needs a door when you have power armor?


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:13 am 
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Quote:
Also goofy like having the highlander storming a citadel with his claymore? That's what makes it warzone if you ask me.


I agree. But that is what a character does, not how they look. Action movie clichés from the eighties transplanted into a diselpunk setting with a liberal dash of horror is the heart and soul of the setting IMHO and that is what needs to be preserved. Just because the Hatamoto no longer looks like an up-armoured Samurai Power Ranger doesn't mean that he can't still be awesome, or embody the spirit of the original unit.

..but I digress. This is art and art is subjective. I'm not going to try and convince you to like it and I fully respect your reasons for not liking it. But we also have to respect and trust Prodos (as the proxy for the concept artist) too.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 10:28 am 
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no that's how they look, I dont really care about storming the citadel part it was just an example it was the idea that a guy a wielding a claymore could do anything useful on a modern day battlefield.
Yet I'd be miffed if they changed that, just like i'm miffed when they take mishimas most iconic unit and make it into e honda.

Power ranger? I don't see it. The old hatamoto is obviously wearing some sort of carbon fibre armour plates on top of what appears to be standard combat fatigues while the power rangers wore tights. But hey I could see the suit taking a shift into what batman wears in batman begins or the nanosuits used by those guys in crysis (with a samurai feel). But to me that's more power ranger than the old concept not less so. But at least that will allow the overlord mishima to enter the cartel negotiating chambers without his bodyguards requiring a special door.

Is it that you want these guys to be more different from standard samurai? then I suggest going for a little less bulky yet still powered armour and giving them a no-dachi. A much larger sword than the standard katana that they because of their armour can still wield like it didn't really weigh anything. It's still a departure from the old hatamoto who were better know for dual wielding katana and wakizashi (a shorter blade), but hey at least its still a samurai.
Of course this comes with similar problems as the bulky power armour such a big sword doesn't really make sense for a warrior who is likely to mostly be fighting in confined spaces. But it's less obvious this way.


Last edited by TheDungen on Thu May 09, 2013 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:23 am 
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Phew! For a minute there I thought we could actually have a real conversation about this and provide Prodos with some genuinely useful feedback.. but then your inconsistent arguments supported by cherry picked facts swooped in to save the day! Progress averted!


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 11:43 am 
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I'm sorry what did you consider inconsistent arguments and cherry picked facts?
I think I gave some pretty creative feedback even suggesting several direction that they could go that wouldn't require any massive rework of the concept. Just make the head a little bigger (and thus the armour a little smaller) and give him a no-dachi.
The last part was just lampshading the problems with my suggestion.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:38 pm 
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I like the concept, but make them sleeker and more resembling to the old art!

I would love to see the helmet designs!


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