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 Post subject: Tactical Move & Sentry
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Sentry Action (A) – A Model may use one Action to
enter Sentry. Place a Sentry Token next to a Model to
indicate its status. Models in Sentry can hold off one
Action Point (which cannot be increased by any means)
to be used as a reaction during the enemy’s Activation
Phase. The following Basic Actions may be used during
a Sentry Action: Shooting, Close Combat and Move.
Sentry Actions can be used between the activation
or Actions of enemy Models. Sentry Tokens not used
up as a reaction to opponents’ Actions must be used
before the end of the Game Turn. The Sentry Action
lasts until the end of the Game Turn.

If Sentry needs and costs one action, then you need an action left after using it to then be delayed by it. No where in the Sentry rules does it give you an extra action.

Tactical Move (A) – Any Marine Model can spend two
Action points to perform a Tactical Move (A). When a
Model completes a Tactical Move (A) Action, first put a
Sentry Token on its base and then move the Model one
Tile. The active Model may instantly use up a Sentry
Action after moving, but before any other Models that
may want to respond to a Tactical Move (A) with their
own Sentry Actions.

I believe this is not the intent, and when you read Tactical Move it supports my belief... which is that Sentry doesn't spend an action to use it. Or rather it does, but it allows you to put that action on hold, delaying it for use later in the turn.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:36 pm 
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Hey, my friends and I had the same problem a while ago, however it has been resolved and has made the game much more balanced.

When we begun, we did not read very clearly the sentry action, and we were playing the sentry for one action. So we attacked close combat with the pred, then went into sentry to shoot once many enemies were in sight. And wailed about the overpowered preds.

Now, we have read the rules more closely.
It costs you one action point to do basic actions (shoot, move, attack, pass, interact, sentry). After that, after you pay to use the action and place a TOKEN, the action of Sentry says that you can "hold off an action point", and since you have SPENT an action point to activate Sentry Action, you must find an unused Action point to be held for later.
Yes, the wording is confusing, but please bear in mind the difficulties of creating a game in your own language, then translate, then check. Something which may be clear when said in your own language may be shady when said in another language. I am having pains to translate it "clearly" in my own for my friends and fellow countrymen :)

I suggest you ignore the rule as it is written, and use this replacement action:
Extended Action - Sentry:
Place a Sentry Token next to your model to indicate its status. You can expend the sentry token as a reaction during the enemy’s Activation Phase to immediately execute one of the following Basic Actions with the model in Sentry: Shooting, Close Combat or Move.
Sentry Actions can be used between the activation or Actions of enemy Models. Sentry Tokens not used up as a reaction to opponents’ Actions must be used before the end of the Game Turn. The Sentry Action
lasts until the end of the Game Turn.

As for the next Action, "Tactical Move", that is a power-up for the marines. You get a free movement of 1 tile, in addition to getting a Sentry Token (which can be expended as above), and it can be expended before any other player has a chance to use up his Sentry Token.
This means that you can "push" your model with tactical move in LoS of a Sentry Predator, then use up your Sentry to excecute a Basic Action (M-CC-RS). You can blast the pred and hope for Christmass, or you can perform a Move Action to get out of LoS (As per rulebook, only two movement actions exist, Move and Run, and you can use only one of them per turn, so Tactical Move is another type of action). And all he can do is watch.

Please note that I am not an official representative of Prodos Games nor do I claim to speak in their place, and I do not claim to have a perfect knowledge of the rules, but I have played a great many games of AvP since I have joined the Crusaders some time ago for AvP. You may call this a "house rule", but I am pretty sure that this or something like it will be the official version of any clarifications/faq/eratta coming up.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:47 am
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Great post, Chronomancer :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:01 pm
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Great post but wrong. The tactical move is two actions. That's you spent up. Even with a free move.
So let's ignore the free move. Let's say you are already on the tile you wanna be on to use this and no move is required. You are left in a position where you have a sentry token on a model and you have already spent the two actions allocated to you. You did this because you wanna shoot first with sentry. This won't come up in just using it hypertherthetically. Now apply sentry rule as you stated very well above. You have no action left to do the last part. You are making a large leap to come to that conclusion.

Your saying the rule not only gives you a free move but also the ability to shoot first as well. That's a large upgrade. It could easily just be that ability to shoot first if sentry was incorrectly clarified by prodos.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:06 am 
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I see no point in using Tactical Move if... I won't use the "Move" part. So I can't really reply to your example. If you use "Tactical Move" and don't move... then it's just an overpriced Sentry. The whole goal of the Tactical Move is to "move + sentry first". That's the whole thing.

I also don't know how to reply to the last part. He's not "saying" anything. It's in the rule text.

" The active Model may instantly use up a Sentry Action after moving, but before any other Models that may want to respond to a Tactical Move (A) with their own Sentry Actions."

The rule explicity says - with way too many words - that you get to shoot first. I don't see how this is anythong other than perfectly clear.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:26 pm 
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I havent had any problem with sentry or tactical move, they appear fine to me.

Sentry costs 1 action, but require 1 action to be left after activating, you have 2 actions (unless a card gives you 1 more) so it can only be used as your first action. Simple.

Tactical move costs 2 actions, this gives you sentry but allows you to move 1 tile also. Simple. This is just a bonus for the marine player, and in my experience he needs it to help stay out of reach longer.

Where is the problem?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:37 am 
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Popsical wrote:
Sentry costs 1 action, but require 1 action to be left after activating, you have 2 actions (unless a card gives you 1 more) so it can only be used as your first action. Simple.

Tactical move costs 2 actions, this gives you sentry but allows you to move 1 tile also. Simple. This is just a bonus for the marine player, and in my experience he needs it to help stay out of reach longer.

Where is the problem?


Going by your Sentry version (needs one free action to use with sentry status) tactical move is only usefull when you have that one card that gives you an extra action... Otherwise you would spend two action points for tactical move, get to move, get an sentry token, can´t spend it because you allready used up both your actions to use tactical move.
Seems odd that one of the basic faction rules is dependant ona tactical cards thats 1/20.

By the way, the wording for Sentry in Warzone (and thats a) how the wargame rules will end up anyways and b) the rules we are using now are coming from) is the following:

Quote:
Advanced Actions (2 Action Points)
Sentry Action –A Model may enter Sentry. Models in Sentry can use 1 Action Point (which
cannot be increased by any means) during the enemy’s Activation Phase. The following
Basic Actions may be made during a Sentry Action: Shooting, Close Combat, Move or Dive for Cover.No more than 2 Models for every 5 Models in a Squad can be placed into Sentry. If the Squad contains less than 5 Models, up to 2 Models can be placed in Sentry. Models using a Sentry Action remain on Sentry until the next Control Phase.


So there you get an "extra" sentry action to use, I know its not AvP rules, but since they are using the same stuff in both rule settings I´m sure its ok to at least compare them and the intention seems to be, you get an extra sentry action from using sentry...

just my spare change


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:53 am 
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Jesus... that Sentry text gives me headache. Just noticed that is says you "MUST" use the Sentry Token. Yet, strangely, you don't get Pass as an allowed action. So if you Sentry, you must shoot, close combat or move. Even if you don't want to (for example, if the only option is moving). Well, I guess you could "move to the current tile", since move is "up to the movement value". So I could move ZERO tiles.

It's just messy. That "can hold off an action point" part... even if the "can" is not helping. It's not optional, is it? :)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:51 am
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:roll:
Its quite abundantly clear how the two rules work. Im often staggered by the ability of some to try and find failings in rules.
Its a long road to having a fun game if you cant figure these two out.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:40 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:15 am
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So, there is a corridor tile with a marine, an empty corner tile and a corridor tile with an alien on sentry.
So marine and alien doesn't have LOS to each other. It's the marine's turn:

1. If the marine uses his first action to move to the corner, the alien in the corridor can use its sentry action to move into the corner tile, before the marine can spend his second action to shoot. The marine now is engaged and has no other option than to attack in close combat or disengage (or use the optional rule to shoot with -10).

2. If the marine uses 2 actions for a tactical advance he moves onto the corner tile and shoots at the alien before it can use its own sentry action.

Right?


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