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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 253
baran wrote:
Yes I was incorrect in that first post - that's why I followed it up with the second one. The rule clearly states that to receive the Run action the model must be activated before any models in coherency are activated. As the Necromutant has already been activated (and was in coherency) this requirement is not met.

And therefore no Run is allowed.


That's not what it says though. It doesn't mention that it only applies at the start of a turn, or when the squad is activated. It is a state that is constantly checked. The way the rule is written, it states that:
If, at any time, a member of the squad is out of coherency, it has to be the first to be activated ie: you cannot activate any models that are in coherency in the squad before activating models that are out of coherency.

This also means that there is no way you can ever activate a squad leader first if elements of your unit is out of coherency. IF you were able to do as you say, that would mean that it's theoretically possible to activate the squad leader first, then in turn activate your other models and run them in the opposite direction, as coherency is not checked until the next turn. That would be utterly silly, and it's not what it says. Coherency is checked at the start of each models activation, as listed in the second part I qouted above;

Quote:
but it should
be remembered that a model out of Squad
Coherency at the beginning of its next acti-
vation
must make a Run Action to return to
Squad Coherency.


Thus, rules as written, currently, allow you to activate the NM first and run the legionnaires behind him. I find it odd that Prodos would miss such a thing, when they specifically remembered to include the exception that allows UL to run when out of Coherency. Also remember that UL's can still engage, which is 2x Movement as well, so it's not unheard of that they would be able to move that distance in a turn.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:19 pm
Posts: 60
Kollar wrote:
baran wrote:
The way the rule is written, it states that:
If, at any time, a member of the squad is out of coherency, it has to be the first to be activated ie: you cannot activate any models that are in coherency in the squad before activating models that are out of coherency.


Err, that's not actually what it says though is it - you've changed the wording pretty drastically there.

It never says "at any time" - this is important. Yes the rule is active all the time but by adding this you change the original's emphasis and distort the meaning.

This is really black and white.

I will highlight the important point:

"During the course of a Game, it is possible that
a Squad member will find themselves out of
Coherency. If this occurs, any Model out of
Squad Coherency must be the first Model in
the Squad Activated
and must complete a
Run Action (even if not normally able to do
so) to return to Squad Coherency"

This does not say it must be activated before models in coherency. It does not say it must be the first model activated from the remaining un-activated models.
It says it must be the first model in the Squad Activated. Period.
The Necromutant Squad Leader is still a member of the squad, and was activated first. Therefore this can't be true.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 253
baran wrote:

Err, that's not actually what it says though is it - you've changed the wording pretty drastically there.

It never says "at any time" - this is important. Yes the rule is active all the time but by adding this you change the original's emphasis and distort the meaning.

This is really black and white.

I will highlight the important point:

"During the course of a Game, it is possible that
a Squad member will find themselves out of
Coherency. If this occurs, any Model out of
Squad Coherency must be the first Model in
the Squad Activated
and must complete a
Run Action (even if not normally able to do
so) to return to Squad Coherency"

This does not say it must be activated before models in coherency. It does not say it must be the first model activated from the remaining un-activated models.
It says it must be the first model in the Squad Activated. Period.
The Necromutant Squad Leader is still a member of the squad, and was activated first. Therefore this can't be true.


That was not a direct qoute. It was a simplifcation. I'll add a direct qoute below then;

P. 17, top left of the page

A player can choose the take a model out of
Squad Coherency at any point, but it should
be remembered that a model out of Squad
Coherency at the beginning of its next acti-
vation
must make a Run Action to return to
Squad Coherency.


Check the underlined part. It does not state that it's the Squad's activation, it states, quite clearly that it's the models activation. Since it states nowhere that Squad coherency is checked ONLY at the beginning of squad activation, you have to check it before activation of each model. What you might infer due to your interpretation of the rules is irrelevant to this case, as the bolded part on p. 17 specifically talk about the models activation, not the squads.

EDIT: Also, with your interpretation of the rules, only one model out of coherency would have to make a run move. So what I could do with a squad, is run everyone but the heavy weapon and one guy more out of coherency. As long as that extra guy is out of coherency, I would never have to run the last model, as he would not be the first to activate. So my five man squad (inlcuding squad leader) would always be 3 man running up front, one man in between trailing, and my heavy weapon alwaus aiming and firing. As the heavy weapon is not the first to be activated, I would not have to run him. This is your interpretation, which makes muss less sense than mine, which is that squad coherency is checked at the start of each models activation.

Thus, a correct flow chart would be the following according to my interpretations;

PreStep: -> Before activation play cards that can only be played between squad activations.
Step 1: -> Activate squad
Step 2: -> Use cards or skills that are activated between model activations
Step 3: -> Check Squad Coherency -> Choose model to activate -> Do actions with model
Step 4: -> Repeat step 2-3 until all models have been activated.
Step 5: -> Pass activation to the next player.

I'm not saying this is intended. I'm saying that either as an effect of oversight or intention, you can run with DL under the current ruleset, and it's not even ambigious. The rules are clear.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:53 am
Posts: 269
There are basically 2 coherency checks:

One at the start of the unit activation: If anyone is out of coherency (ooc), they must be the first to be activated and run (your rules quote)

One at the start of the individual model activation: If it is ooc, they must make a run action to get into coherency.(Kollars rules quote)

Both rules CAN be used to make Legionnaires run:

(1) Activate Necromutant last and run away. When the unit is activated again in the next round, all Legionnaires are ooc and must run towards the Necromutant

(2) Activate Necromutant first and run away. When each following model is activated, they are ooc and must run towards the Necromutant.


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