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 Post subject: Leviathan vs Grizzly
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:09 pm 
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Location: Yeosu, South Korea
Capitol has never been famous as heavy armor army. In fact the old books do not even mention tanks, except the RPG Capitol's sourcebook stating that Capitol does not have many armored divisions and that the tanks are primarily adapted for urban warfare and close support work beyond the McCraig Line. They are designed for block clearing, providing cover and support for advancing infantry, rather than for taking on enemy tanks. That role belongs to the air force.

Knowing the above and that both Leviathan and Grizzly are of similar size, I would personally give leviathan less armor and firepower than "mighty" Grizzly. Of course Grizzly would cost more points. I think Grizzly is iconic for Warzone and it should stay that way. It has always been the most powerful tank ever produced by the corporations.


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 Post subject: Re: Leviathan vs Grizzly
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:51 pm 
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I think those big twin guns on the leviathan look more like large bore auto-cannons than a standard Cannon that you'd find on a MBT. my guess is that its more for taking on light vehicles and infantry but isn't entirely useless against enemy tanks.

so from a game stats standpoint the leviathan will most likely have a higher ROF with a lower weapon strength but could probably still take out a grizzly if it is lucky.


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 Post subject: Re: Leviathan vs Grizzly
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:21 pm 
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Location: Madchester, UK
I agree with Xaxius I think the twin guns were designed for a high rate of fire against the hordes of the DL especially the likes of the Razides & Praetorian Stalkers, more than taking on other tanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Leviathan vs Grizzly
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:19 am 
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There are two Tanks listed in the RPG Capitol sourcebook:

The AFV 110 Desert Fox
&
The AFV 114 Montana

Im hoping to see interpretations of these by Prodos in the future :)


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 Post subject: Re: Leviathan vs Grizzly
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:45 am 
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Huh, surprised there has been no comment on this now that we have the stats for both. :D

Here are my thoughts now that we have 'em:

Toughness

The Grizzly sports the tougher main hull of the two with more SP and a higher AV. But seems to have a little less structure for weapons and motive systems (but the same armour). Out of the two, the Grizzly has a more vulnerable engine with a bit less armour. So in terms of survivability, it is largely a wash. The Grizzly can take more of an overall beating to the hull, but secondary systems are easier to shut down (though only by a little on the engine).

Offensive Punch

Well, the first thing to note, the Leviathan has a slightly higher RS. Not a huge thing, but definitely a thing.

Then we have the Ultracannon which is a fairly good general purpose weapon. It has a couple of extra inches in range over the Grizzly's basic weapon, RoF 2, a point higher St and a solid AVV out of the gate. This thing is handy against vehicles and monsters (especially with ammo switching).

But the Grizzly really shines in its Mortar's ability to mow down infantry with abandon. Large blast, 17 St and Blast-type ammo mean that it will take squads apart quite nicely.

Now, secondary weapons. The Grizzly sports no less than 3 Bergdahl Stonecleaver LMGs each with 50% more ROF than the M606. When the Grizzly fires all of its guns, it can shred infantry units with abandon. A large blast and 9 LMG shots are nothing to sneeze at.

But now, what about special ammo?

The Grizzly is already an infantry shredder without having to touch resources. So it only really needs a special anti-tank round to make it a threat to vehicles. And the 180mm 'Tank Killer' does this well. It deals 3SP, at AVV10 which is good enough to rip through the armour of almost any vehicle in the game. It isn't too shabby against monsters, but not on the same level as the Ultracannon.

The Leviathan's Assassin Rounds can actually produce more raw SP damage than the 180mm, but it does so at a sacrifice to AVV. Should be handy against lower armoured vehicles with 4SP or less. And the fact that its basic anti-monster capability isn't tied to it's anti-vehicle capability makes it really flexible.

Finally the Leviathan also gets an anti-personnel mode on its main guns. Though not as crazy as the standard anti-infantry barrage of the Grizzly, ROF8 at St14 is nothing to sneeze at either.

Summary

The Leviathan is definitely the better generalist of the two. Its base guns, for zero resources, can handle monsters and light vehicles with aplomb. Its secondary armaments aren't too crazy (but unlike the Stonecleavers, hull damage wont get rid of them). For specialist ammo, its anti-infantry capability isn't quite on par with the Grizzly (costs two resources to enact it and will result in 8 St14 shots and 4 St13 shots). But for anti-tank it is a lot closer. The Grizz needs to spend two resources and can deal 3SP at AVV10, the Leviathan can potentially do 4SP at AVV8 (but may not be able to peg the same location twice for maximum effect).

The Grizzly is more specialized, but potentially more efficient out of the box. Having a resource free large-blast and 9 St13 (albeit at shorter range than the M606's) shots to throw around from turn to turn means that without spending resources, it can take infantry squads to the cleaners. It is basically a huge-arse pillbox. But when you spend resources to open up a can of AT whupass, it carries a true "hole puncher" that can plonk 3SP on to one location quite easily while still maintaining its blanket of anti-infantry fire. And I think the real genius is that to start killing off some of that anti-infantry firepower, you are forced to hit it in the hull (the place it packs more structure and armour than anything else). Even if it loses its main gun, it retains a great level of threat to infantry (this is something the Leviathan lacks with its relatively more anemic secondary weapons).

In a tank-on-tank fight, it would be hard to call. The Grizzly needs two consecutive shots on the same location with its main gun to kill the Leviathan. The Leviathan needs to score 3-4 hits on the same location to do the same (though it does so at 2/turn). In a lot of ways it mimics the difference of "Hole Puncher" vs. "Crit Seeker" in Battletech. The Leviathan spreads its damage out but does potentially more overall. The Grizzly puts all of its eggs in one basket.

That said, at 50 points less, the Leviathan is a nice unit that does a bit of everything quite well. The Grizzly is an anti-infantry unit with the option of getting a pretty nice anti-tank shot off. In unison with anti-vehicle foot units, I think I prefer the Grizzly's "hole-puncher" approach. Fire the Grizzly, land a hefty shot somewhere and then fire aimed shots in to the same location with subsequent infantry weapons. That is one of the larger strengths of placing all of your SP damage in one location. So for the extra 50 points, I think the Grizzly complements and supports other troops quite nicely.

The Leviathan wins out based on individual performance. On its own it can threaten any target it is given and do it for a bit cheaper than the Grizzly. As a part of the army as a whole, I think the Grizzly has better synergy with the rest of its force. It is a better anti-infantry machine than the Leviathan and when coupled with aimed shots against vehicles, its ability to place 3SP on a location is hard to match.

However, the downside to being a good team player is that the Grizzly kind of needs to be built around to maximize its role. The Leviathan can be dropped in to a list (well, not quite, still a bloody expensive unit) as a general problem solver. Definitely a true MBT. The Grizzly is more like a central bulwark for the Bauhaus forces that supports their push and opens up options for the rest of the units.

There is an interesting dynamic between the two. I'd love to see Capitol's own version of a more specialized supporting tank (the Montana perhaps?) and Bauhaus's own line MBT (the Wolf, I think) as counterpoints to the slightly different design goals of the Grizzly and the Leviathan.

Either way, can't wait to have my Grizzly whenever we end up getting them. But I am pleased with how they both turned out. They definitely feel like huge, freaking tanks. :D


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