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 Post subject: Regarding STARTER BOX
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:12 am 
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Location: Łódź, Poland
I was just checking what is a point value of each starter box it seems that:

Capitol is 430 p - plus Tactics max 40 p) = 470
Brotherhood - 530 p only in models (still requires some points for ART)= 530 plus ART
Bauhaus 445p in models
Mishima 475 in models
Cybertronic 459 in models
Dark Legion 395 in models.

I have feeling that THE brotherhood is OP already and starter for this army cannot be played on recomended 500 p level.

To play BH starter you have to replace dominik with other LORD, but in this case you should have at least 1 squad of Inquistors or Valkiries to fully use their skills.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Hi there!

Very astute. :) The Starter Boxes have slightly different points values, but you have forgotten to include the various upgrades the other armies are allowed too. Some work is being done to Dark Legion to help balance this out, but these are *starter* boxes, the intention is for people to add (and indeed, want to add) stuff to the box. I would naturally want to add a Necromutant Squad Commander and also a couple of Razides. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:30 pm 
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That's true but with 530 (even more as BHood have to take ART) you have too much points to play 500 out of the box.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:58 pm 
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I fail to see the issue with BH here. With more points you can obviously not play with everything at once at 500points... but remove the Judicator and you will have a valid force. It is worse for the starters that fall short of 500 points, like legion.

Regardless, it is probably better to play 600-700 points for the smaller games, otherwise the warlord will take up quite a high percentage of the army.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:22 pm 
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I agree, even 1000 pts is hard to choose what to take!!! :)

Remember, it is a 'Starter Box', not a 'game in a box'. People *can* play a game using 2 'starter boxes', but they will want to expand on that.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:43 am 
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To me, this is a feature, not a bug in a lot of cases. With upgrades, it gives the lower-cost starters a lot more leeway in playing with new builds out of the box. The only problematic ones are Dark Legion who don't have a lot of upgrade options right now and Capitol who are fairly limited in how many straight upgrades they can take.

Bauhaus, Mishima and Cybertronic have a lot of space to play with in terms of unit upgrades.

The Brotherhood kind of has their hand forced in any test game. They basically get un-upgraded troops and a couple of Arts.

In most games it is hard to get a perfect cost-to-points balance out of starter boxes. Since they all need to come with roughly the same amount of stuff in them while being similar in terms of game size. Getting both of these bang-on is hard to do. So getting close-enough is good at the very least.

So long as, using the army-building rules, you can have a fun game out of the box, things should be good. I wouldn't recommend going out of the box for many games (Warmachine and MERCS are the only two games I have played that allow this), but building with points should still allow all the starters to work from word go. If you are doing a DL or Cap game versus BHood then you may just have to cut something from the BHood list to even things up.

Either way, a lot better out of the box than Infinity where you get some wildly divergent point cost/support weapon totals (and at least a couple of the starters result in illegal armies using the point system).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:00 am 
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I just wanted to point out, that PRODOS recomends game on 500 in Rules and BHood starter already exceeds this limit.

I think this is Dominc fault, but Bhood is designed in way, he is only universal Warlord. Hamiklar and Laura forces specific amry composition with Support Units as Troops.

I think this is mistake. You can try to explain it to in way - you buy starter and you get more, or you will still need more figures to play.

When I buy 2 starter boxes, I expect I can play them and they are more or less same value.

This is not true with BHood box.


BTW I checked, You are unable to reach 600 with other than Bhood faction (For some boxes it is hard to even get 500)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:34 am 
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Hmm...how does Hamilkar and Laura force army compositon? I my version of the rules Laura gives the option to field Valkyries as troops but nothing forces you to do so, and there are no such rules for Hamilkar.
You can still play legal 500 points with the BH starter by using Dominic and two squads of brotherhood troopers. You don't have to use the Judicator. For using 600 points (or more) as the lower points limit, I mentioned that as it seems more feasible as the warlord will not use up 25%-50% of the total force and you can field some more balanced forces.

I think most agrees that the starters should be as equal in points as possible, but for me it is more important that they give a reasonable foundation to the forces and I think they are similar in this (warlord, 2 small squads and vehicle/monster).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:56 am 
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When you choose Laura or Hamiklar and you don't have any SUPPORTs as TROOPS - you just waste points - so that's why it forces you.

Solution for that would be startee with Hamiklar or Laura plus 5 inquisitor/valkiries 5 troopers and Judicator - but rules were written far after BOX composition was known.


In case you deploy Dominic and TROOPS only, you have 2 units and most points in Warlord.
One more time - when I pay for starter box I want to play it out of the box against other starter. I don't want to add or substract anything.
You don't need to explain my advantages of having same type of units as in other starters.

I'm pointing a weak point, just saying it looks like nobody has taken it into consideration.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:41 am 
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euru wrote:
When you choose Laura or Hamiklar and you don't have any SUPPORTs as TROOPS - you just waste points - so that's why it forces you.


im sorry I don't understand where you get this from


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