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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:23 pm 
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I just got off of a discussion with one of the guys which I share the pledge with. Result of this was our decision to voice our concerns.

When this Kickstarter started, we were excited to see that the miniatures embodiing our greatly liked background had seen a refreshing modernization.

Bauhaus had lost the Prussian look and fielded realistically sized shoulder pads. In short, the models looked great. Then the fandom started arguing for the old look, and now we have Space Prussians again. Not great.

Sorry, yes, Paul Bonner's artworks look great, but they are visually outdated. If we wanted to play with models fielding outdated looks -Prince August has a lot of them in stock for cheap. But we don't.

We neither want to play any of the old editions with house rules made rules attached to them. We like the old game editions a lot. Some in our group started their wargaming career with it. We still have the books. But this is, nor should it be any of the old editions. This is a new game.
We want to play a modern, coherent game. A game of which we are supposed to beta test the rules currently. Which means Prodos has an idea how the game should work, and we test, if the rule as given works. We should not dictate changes.

The changes to beta 1.1 were a shock to me. I thought I spotted the potential hinted by Prodos in 1.0, just to see it castrated in 1.1. And again, these changes were influenced by fandom wanting to see a dead product alive again.

And I'm sad to chime in the same chorus as the fanbase whose influence I don't like: if this Kickstarter does keep plummeting down towards the 80s/90s both visually and rules-wise, we see no need to support this game anymore.

The 80s/90s are gone, and this game should work and look like a game designed in 2013.

OK, just seen the new Hussars and sorry. The weapons are a no-go. They look as if one had used a proxy for 40k and glued on some wrongly sized special weapons. If this is the direction this game heads visually, we're out.

We, those in whose name I write these lines, are 4 guys sharing one pledge. But behind us is a gaming club of 40 members here in Germany. And our excitement has already stirred some curiousity in other gamers who now think about starting this game, too.

The gamers who still play the old editions and just want to see a remake are not the only ones interested in this game. And I'd like to think that the majority of your supporters, Prodos, are new customers!

So please, Prodos, stay true to the game you yourselves envisioned, stay true to the look you envisioned for your miniatures line, and bring us a great NEW product that you are proud of.

And now to quote Johnny Storm: Flame on! ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:43 pm
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So let me see if I undestand you properly. You are upset that fans of the game (new and old) complained or commented on the models and rules and Prodos listened and made changes to the rules and the models that the fans asked for? That you are upset that fans of the old "boxy" miniature days spoke of no longer supporting the kickstarter if the game wasnt Warzone they knew and love or some variaiton of it? That essentially the loudest fans (or perhaps the majority) made their opinons known and got Prodos to meet them about 50% of the way?

And your response is to "threaten" to stop backing them and take your 40+ gamers eslewhere if you dont get your way?

I am confused, and I hope you see why.

You see, if Prodos really wanted to make the Warzone they wanted they wouldnt be listening or accepting fan input. If they wanted to make a game that was purely a 2013 design they probably wouldnt have gone after the Warzone/Mutant Chronicles IP. A IP that has a pre-ready made support base for at least the first year. No, they would have just made their own IP (Resurrection Wars or Mutant Wars or something).

The knew going in they were going to face staunch skepticism and rabid fanboys. They planned for it, which is why they listen and accept opinions. Some they will budge on, some they wont.

You are right, this is not the 80s/90s. Its 2013. But Prodos is not just making this game for me or for you. For your group or my group. They are probably making it for the largest and most supportive crowd they can. Which starts with the old school fans of Warzone and then trickles to the new crowd who has never heard of Warzone.

So, I hate to say it, if you dont like it, go play some other game. Its the response people who like 1E, 2E, and UWZ get when they pose their thoughts and opinions.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:30 pm 
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Hey, and the same 'go, play a different game, go, play your first edition with house rules' is what I suppressed the last two weeks.

And I hope many others liking the new approach did so, too.

And no, I don't see a need for Prodos to bend over. Prodos should try to pull off what they wanted to pull off. If that's what I don't like, I won't support it. And I mean 'I' as in everyone judging for themselves.

And yes, this WZR we are currently heading to is not the WZR Prodos presented when the Kickstarter started.

I'm not mad about it. But Prodos should know - and communicate - what WZR they want to kickstart. Theirs, the one of old WZ gamers, something completely different.

And to be fair. The threat 'I quit' I've read a lot here. Most often in context of 'if it doesn't start looking like 1998 I'll quit!'.

Now it's the turn of those who liked Prodos' idea of this game to pull of that threat.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:57 pm 
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So let me know, what was the big change between 1.0 and 1.1 that changes the game for you?

As far as I can tell from the kickstarter page, Prodos has never said any indicator of the game they are trying to make other than "hey its Warzone" and "hey here are some of the designs we have, what do you think?" and "hey here are some of our rules, what do you think?".

And I heard the phrase (or variations of it) of "go play 2E if you love it so much" many many times these past few weeks.

And looking at 1.1 it is obvious Prodos isnt creating a new game, they never were, they were just revising and changing an older game. At its heart its the same system.

No one ever said Prodos had to bend over and take it from the fanboys. But they decided to take advice from the fans (of all kinds).

I think WZR is heading in the right direction. And remember those Fanboys are the ones who provide gaming companies with the majority of their sales. Those fan boys are the ones who think paying 55 quid for a tank is a great deal even though they dont play that faction. Those fanboys are the ones who give hundreds if not thousands of dollars of their salaries to the game. Those fanboys are the customers that help turn a profit.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:58 pm 
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For the record, I fully support your right to protest, complain and try to get your voices heard. But it sounds more like you are saying they are not making the game you want and therefore they are wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:03 pm 
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And my last comment (I hope LOL), unless I feel lured by in.

If you are upset that they returned Bauhaus into WW1 and before Prussians (which they should be) how do you feel about the Mishima as Samurai? Is that ok?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:19 pm
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Location: Pais Vasco - Spain
I represent a group of 5 players that are supporting the Kickstarter too, and a group of 35 more in a gaming Association.

We didnt like the initial "Tau" Bauhaus :lol: , we want shoulderpads, we want models looking like Paul Bonner pictures (the old ones didnt do it justice), we didnt like the cards in 1.0, we look optimistic with the 1.1 and 1.2 changes.

If they didnt want people like my friends and I, they shouldnt have taken the Warzone license and simply have created a new game.


Prodos needs to satisfy YOU and US, and this is a hell-ish mission ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:33 pm 
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@ the OP, I would disagree that Prodos is making a new game, they are reviving an old one. I like the way they are blending the two. As a hardcore 2nd ed fan, I am satisfied with how the rules and look of the minis is coming along. Both the changes and the things they left from the previous games.

@ peacekeeper_b, We old time warzone fans have to keep in mind that the games we loved are gone. And that the fault lays partially at our feet. We couldn't support our games. We need new blood like the OP's group. There must be a middle ground and Prodos has the ugly task of finding it.

A lst point for the OP on the Hussar models. The renders on the KS have the weapons out of scale, someone from Prodos said that will be fixed by the 3D printer software.

JP


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:45 pm 
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Location: Kenilworth, Warwickshire, UK
At the end of the day, Prodos Games has the stressful job of finding a middle ground.

I hope the changes made are seen as seeking the middle ground, they are doing whatever they can to appease the majority, but also seek out their own vision, shared by the vision of Paradox Entertainment.

Just express your opinions in a constructive manner, allow changes here and there, but try to focus on what you do like. If you are not keen on the early-German look of the Bauhaus, chop off the Pickelhaub spikes! Easier to remove than to add, if you ask me!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:58 pm 
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All those fans already have minis and rules which they do love. So why should the NEW game be as close as possible to the old one? A Kickstarter is supposed to support NEW projects. So why should I fund something that is the same to something already existant?

I entered at the beginning of this Kickstarter when I had seen the first Bauhaus concepts. I thought 'hey, a modern version of my favorite game'. Then those silly Prussion style helmets returned and I thought 'OK, I can remove those'. But the final renders now don't look anything like first draft of concepts anymore. Beside the silly helmets we now have a return of the even more silly shoulder pads which allow neither a movement of the heads, nor sight to the trooper wearing them. On top of that these overly bulky weapons and poses... just look at the comments under the KS update. 'nuff said there.

This is not the product anymore that I wanted to buy in, when it was first presented to me on Kickstarter. And so it doesn't make any sense to me to buy it, or even less so fund it now.

Bauhaus doesn't has to look Prussian. Or more precise they don't have to be Prussians with spiked helmets. In a more modern version of Warzone wargear will have changed. The German Bundeswehr (federal army) doesn't wear spiked helmets anymore neither.
So first concepts shown were - let's say - a modernized Prussian look. That's fine. But first and foremost it should be about feasability of models, and none of these shoulder pads, weapons, nor poses of the final concept look feasable to me at all


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